Sad E bay story

Status
Not open for further replies.

baddboybill

Boomus Fidelis
I had this type of scam happen to me with a Sony wm10 Walkman. The buyer said it didn't work so he had to ship it back. Well when I got it back it was missing battery cover and screws. I got hold of eBay and they refunded me my money as a 1 time courtesy they said. So that's all fine and great but what if happens again? Then I'm out so Geoff if you can get unit back make sure to take plenty of pics before, during and after opening and thoroughly check unit over and call eBay asap if anything missing or out of place then you might get courtesy refund 😉


Bad Boy Bill
 

duckman

Member (SA)
This is getting bad, SHEESH. Should be a claim on the carrier, and the buyer's responsibility to initiate as HE paid for it.

Seems this is the way most large businesses (and smaller ones as well) are going, with everyone absolving themselves of any responsibility anymore. Ebay has for a few years now tossed the sellers to the curb when they are the ones driving the system. No items, no Ebay I have sent numerous emails regarding this especially when I get survery requests.

Carriers as well. Send something out of country with Canada Post and you have to sign a waiver (technically) stating if item is undeliverable, that you want the item returned @ your expense or abandon it at other end. WTF, that just leaves the system ripe for corruption as what happens to the item if you do leave it at the destination?

I know this would most likely never happen, but wouldn't the way Ebay is getting almost qualify for a class action suit for unfair business practices? :-P

As with others, feel for ya Geoff. Press Ebay on this tho as much as you can.
 

soundboy

Member (SA)
sorry this is happening
I fear this experience
This post is sure to serve others in dealings with buying and selling
I see these radios go for lots of money on ebay
I see now things regarding sales are risky. will continue not to start selling
Thanks you! your loss is my awakening...
 

nikonfoo

Requiem Æternam
Sorry has taken a while to get back to this
after my melt down
Really just wanted to forget the whole thing and get back to enjoying boomboxes
When i informed him i would refund all money and postage and he would need to return it
He said he would accept $150 and he would try to fix it
Said he would go to post office and file damage report on his day of Saturday
I consulted with ebay and as i already accepted to refund full amount
they informed me if i now wanted to refund a partial refund i would have to do it outside of ebay directly with Pay pal
Half of me wanted to say **** it and get the box to someone here but hey
If this worked i had lost only $150 :bang:
This maybe a scam or he may be legit
I really still didnt and still dont know
So I returned the $150
He accepted closed the case and left positive feed back
ebay refused to return fees for the $150 because i returned outside of ebay and therefor pay pal too
I have asked my PO about the damage report and as some weeks pass no show
So I feel as the post title says sad
i think the biggest problem is ebay and the way they protect themselves not the buyer not the seller
Lastly thank you for all the offers even as far as going and pick it up from his house on your day off :angelic:
Thanks to you all
and advice i have received and hope this can help someone else
 

baddboybill

Boomus Fidelis
That's BS that eBay and PayPal wouldn't refund the difference. I can't believe eBay even told you to refund money without going through them. That was BS too


Bad Boy Bill
 

duckman

Member (SA)
That is very big of you, however, you sent a working box insured correct?

So he is only going to PO now? That should have been done Immediately, and he should have noted damage upon reciept of goods with carrier.

Can only hope he actually follows through and sends you back $ after/if claim with PO is resolved. That is what insurance is for, but we know that can be a pain.
 

nikonfoo

Requiem Æternam
yes eBay do not have any policy
that he has to go to help with damage report at PO
so even though you insure an item if the buyer doesn't
want to help there is no way to get the insurance
But they blindly believe him when he says its broken
 

Superduper

Moderator
Staff member
The guy clearly wanted desperately to keep it and was simply trying to extort the international seller for a sizable refund. I would have said $50 off, take it or leave it. But that's just me. Principle is more important to me than minimizing the loss .
 

nikonfoo

Requiem Æternam
Superduper said:
The guy clearly wanted desperately to keep it and was simply trying to extort the international seller for a sizable refund. I would have said $50 off, take it or leave it. But that's just me. Principle is more important to me than minimizing the loss .
well yes im not sure i did the right thing
It was a very confusing problem not black and white


It was actually some of your earlier comments that made me think in the eyes of the buyer
What if i got a box that was broken

and I still dont have evidence this was a scam

I had already offered to give him $300 + $130 postage + return postage $50 if he agreed to ship to US or $130 if not
he ofered to accept $150
Yes he was lazy and didnt go to the post office
I am suspisious that it was ever broken
But he doesn't have to prove anything he can still receive a full refund
And you told me it is a lot of trouble to do a damage report and many people dont have the time and it can work out problems for the buyer in the end to put a damage report
Then you give me
Principle is more important to me than minimizing the loss
Thats a harsh judgment
your advice of take $50 take it or leave it is very different from your advise at the time
 

oldskool69

Moderator
Staff member
I believe there may be some miscommunication...

What Norm (Superduper) is saying is this:

After all you have been willing to do, and all that you have offered, it is clear that the buyer is trying to keep the box. He has already told you in writing that he does not want to go to the post office and work with you as you surely cannot ship it yourself. By offering $50 as compensation for the damage, the buyer can take it or leave it, but you have done your part and it is documented. From there, no stress on you.

By all accounts, from what I have read thus far, the buyer is trying to have it all, and that is not how it works. I agree with Norm. After the $50 final offer, worry no more. You have proven yourself, and don't need to stress any further. :-)
 

Superduper

Moderator
Staff member
What Freddie said is spot on. You probably are reading what I said wrong. Nobody is blaming you Nikonfoo, you are most likely a victim here. What I'm saying is that based on what I know from what I've read here on this thread (and you obviously know more than I since you are directly involved), based on the other members responses here, at least 1 who seem to already have experience with this fella, based on this buyer's responses to you, and based on 15 years of eBay buying/selling experience, it seems to me that this particular buyer appears to know how to work the system and appears to be trying to extort whatever he can, from you as an international seller. Since eBay now requires sellers to pay return shipping (in the past, this was not the case) on items considered damaged or faulty, this will hit international sellers much harder than domestic sellers. Ergo, claiming the item is faulty means it is far more likely you will settle and eat a huge loss rather than accept a return. An unscrupulous buyer will bank on this. In fact, that appears to be exactly what he is doing. What I've observed is that he won't provide any details on the problem, does not show pictures of any actual damage, refuses to investigate the source of the noise, claims he doesn't know about these things, yet his history shows he deals with lots of electronic goods selling or buying, and he files return claim thinking that you won't accept and will just refund his money but to his suprise you did accept a return ruining his plans making him scramble to salvage the sale (he obviously still wanted it). So if he wanted it that bad, why ask for a return? The only reasonable conclusion is that there either is nothing wrong with the boombox (pictures seems to show it working), or whatever is wrong is minor and he planned to fix it all along, and wants to keep it but wants to extort as much as he can to get it as close to free as possible.

(IF IT WAS ME), after I've come to this conclusion, I would not negotiate with him. Providing him a return shipping label is easy and is good because it puts YOU in control of where it goes and what type of shipping service to use. eBay does not care where it goes, they will only track the item and when tracking shows it delivered, they will consider item returned, wherever it went doesn't matter. I would not have offered him one cent to ship it to whomever or wherever else I wanted it to go... that would've been none of his business. Now, when I stated that I would've offered $50 take/leave it offer, that served 2 purposes. It allowed him, as a scammer to accept a smaller refund but still have a scam victory, and allowed you to take a small but reasonable and minimal loss. Knowing that he wanted to keep the box, I bet you he would have taken a $50 off deal. The reason I said "out of principle" is because eBay does not protect sellers, they protect, enables, and even encourages unscrupulous buyers. I would say a small segment of eBay users does the majority of the scamming, whether on the buying or selling side. Large sellers take bad buyers into consideration and treats these transactions as "the cost of doing business" on eBay. For small and caring sellers like boombox enthusiasts, we have small volume take these transactions personally. That you had to run into and encounter this buyer is your misfortune. I personally do not want this buyer to claim a scam victory over me so I'd rather lose out on the shipping costs than to enable his continued behaviour. But again, this is ME and not you. What you should do is simply whatever you feel comfortable with. If you choose the less costly route, then this is exactly what scam buyers are counting on since the simple fact of claiming an item is faulty will mean you AUTOMATICALLY lose some money, and they are counting on you to take the least costly method by refunding him money, which is less than the high cost of international return shipping.

You are correct, I did state in other threads that you can not automatically villify every buyer as a scam artist, nor can you automatically write off every seller as dishonest and misrepresents their items. You need to consider what you know and in this case, there seems to be enough hints to make a reasonable decision. Sometimes, you might decide wrong, but no matter what, you do need to decide when you are pushed into it. With a case filed against you, you were forced to make a decision. By putting this before us, I presume you were asking for our feedback into this. But this does not mean that you need to abide by any opinion or consensus, that's for you to decide what to do. Still what I mentioned was what I personally would've done based on what I've read and know. Doesn't mean that I'm right, but in this case, I would've felt good about what I believe in my gut was a buyer who wanted to take advantage of the system and a $50 offer would've been fair.

Anyhow, you've already resolved this so it's all moot. Might as well forget about it now and put this behind you. For your own peace of mind, I suggest you block this buyer from bidding on any future auctions or you may regret it. I have already blocked him and am more than happy to live with lower selling prices due to less bidders. As least I sleep better.
 

duckman

Member (SA)
Agreed whole heartedly Norm !

I would like to add also:

There was insurance on the shipment and in future HOLD the buyer to it, after all, he paid for it and an excuse (stated or implied) that he doesn't want to go through the trouble should be flag enough.

That is what insurance is for, no?. Sellers are not responsible for damages, unless of course the packaging is terrible., but that still has to be resolved through the proper channels

I am not sure how the rule of law works in this case exactly now with Ebay , but we had a case opened a couple of years ago and the buyer was a novice of sorts, so we initiated the claim with the carrier and Ebay held off any reimbursement action (technically) against us pending the outcome of the claim with carrier. IIRC, once they had a file reference # from the carrier, they let that play out. The money was held in our Paypal account, which was a bit of an inconvenience, but was released upon resolution of the shipping issue.

Again, not sure if this is the exact case now, but still a point to toss back at the buyers before refunding.

Blocking buyer, moving on for sure.

Thank you for putting the word out here tho, so we can all be wary.




 

Superduper

Moderator
Staff member
duckman said:
There was insurance on the shipment and in future HOLD the buyer to it, after all, he paid for it and an excuse (stated or implied) that he doesn't want to go through the trouble should be flag enough.

That is what insurance is for, no?. Sellers are not responsible for damages, unless of course the packaging is terrible., but that still has to be resolved through the proper channels
Unless I'm mistaken, eBay's policy does not address insurance at all, only seller's responsibilities which is to get the item there UNDAMAGED. If buyer refuses to cooperate, especially if using the USPS (post office), then this is where the problem begins. Seller can initiate a claim with post office if the item does not arrive, but once arrived, the buyer needs to take item to the post office to file claim and show damage. If claim accepted, post office will take the item to dispose of internally (probably via auction). Therefore USPS's process requiring buyers to take item to post office for examination can be a problem because eBay will not require a buyer to go anywhere. Also, buyers that are familiar with how the postal insurance system works and doesn't want to relinquish the item may balk at this (in this case, the buyer almost certainly won't want to relinquish the item). However, if item was sent via UPS or Fedex, then seller can initiate a claim in which case, UPS or Fedex will contact the buyer to arrange for a driver to visit and perform inspection, but if like in this case, buyer refuses to cooperate and claim non-availability during business hours, then that again is problematic. I suggest all sellers to think of insurance ONLY in case of a total loss (lost in transit, stolen, etc.). Any seller that banks on buyer cooperation is skating on thin ice. You may luck out, or not. Some of you guys are non-USA. I understand that eBay and shipper guidelines may vary by country. This is generally how I understand it works in USA.
 

nikonfoo

Requiem Æternam
thanks Superduper
Yes I now understand
I will be more prepared next time
Thanks for taking the time to explain so precisely
Really :rock:
sorry I tend to take things personally
We all need to understand what to do when this happens
I now understand as an international buyer selling mid priced high shipping costs I will probably attract scammers
and need to work out some strategy or i will just get taken advantage of as easy prey
with the new eBay rules
 

duckman

Member (SA)
Superduper said:
Unless I'm mistaken, eBay's policy does not address insurance at all, only seller's responsibilities which is to get the item there UNDAMAGED. If buyer refuses to cooperate, especially if using the USPS (post office), then this is where the problem begins. Seller can initiate a claim with post office if the item does not arrive, but once arrived, the buyer needs to take item to the post office to file claim and show damage. If claim accepted, post office will take the item to dispose of internally (probably via auction). Therefore USPS's process requiring buyers to take item to post office for examination can be a problem because eBay will not require a buyer to go anywhere. Also, buyers that are familiar with how the postal insurance system works and doesn't want to relinquish the item may balk at this (in this case, the buyer almost certainly won't want to relinquish the item).
This is most likely the case, but seeing as we had a co-operative buyer, he did not escalate things and issue was resolved.


Superduper said:
I suggest all sellers to think of insurance ONLY in case of a total loss (lost in transit, stolen, etc.). Any seller that banks on buyer cooperation is skating on thin ice. You may luck out, or not.
Sage advice.
 

Superduper

Moderator
Staff member
duckman said:
This is most likely the case, but seeing as we had a co-operative buyer, he did not escalate things and issue was resolved.
No I wouldn't call him cooperative. Buyer initiated a return request. Once that happens, seller is stuck between a rock and a hard place. eBay informed seller that he could agree to accept a return of the item but because it was damaged or faulty, seller would have to pay return shipping costs. If seller does not agree, issue could be escalated into a claim and then eBay could decide. It's very possible that eBay could simply refund buyer and not force a return, and seller just loses the entire sales proceeds (and shipping costs too). To my understanding, only AFTER seller accepted the return request did buyer suddenly negotiate hard for a partial refund. Unfortunately, Nikonfoo took a gamble since once the return is accepted in eBay's system, there is no way to cancel that request except the buyer has to close the case. Because the partial refund had to take place "outside" of eBay's claim process (remember, eBay and PayPal are now separate companies) and if the buyer wanted to, he could have kept the case open either deliberately or out of ignorance. In that case, then Nikonfoo could have potentially lost the entire sales, lost the boombox, and lost the partial refund. It was risky but worked out for him. I would not have done this outside of eBay. Their automated system has timed triggers that buyers/sellers need to respond to. Once the return is accepted, seller only has a certain number of days to provide a return shipping label, and once that label is provided to buyer, the buyer likewise only have a certain number of days to deposit the item to shipper -- all the while eBay monitors the tracking number provided to confirm timely compliance.

Unrelated but I once had a japan buyer file a paypal non-receipt claim for a downloadable product (he didn't know how to download). Instead of just asking me for help, he filed the claim. I sent him the file and he acknowledged he got it. When I asked him to please close the case, he said OK but never did. I don't really think he knew how and language was a problem. Luckily the buyer never responded again nor did he escalate and paypal automatically closed the case after 21 days. In Nikonfoo's case, if the buyer did not close the case after getting his partial refund, that could have been a potential huge PITA.
 

duckman

Member (SA)
I was referring to my case as the buyer being co-operative. That was a while ago and it seems things have changed since I last had to deal with this sort of issue. Postal service out of Canada has scary new rules as well for out of country shipments now.

Thank you for all this info tho, as I/we shall be even more vigilant in our future dealings for sure.
 

nikonfoo

Requiem Æternam
Hi duckman
Yes I understood
99% of the people i deal with have been co-operative too
As they were true boombox fans who understood that sometimes things go wrong
I have spent days working with people to find the problem and in the end they have learnt so much and
love the box that much more :clap:

But with these new rules i fear that there will be people who search out
items that are expensive to send and easy to say have broken such as vintage items
 
Status
Not open for further replies.