It's time to be serious: talking about Newton massacre

[Reli]

No, it doesn't "prove" anything. One can assume it's proof, but it isn't proof.

Semi-auto pistols, not rifles, are the most common tool for shootings here in the US. So there is no reason why they couldn't have been used to commit shootings in Oz as well. So if they're legal in Oz, then it's just a statistical anomoly that no shootings happened.

Unless a rifle has a big clip, it has no advantage inside a classroom over a semi-auto pistol. In fact the pistol has an advantage because it's easier to conceal.

 

[baddboybill]

My opinion stands as a few others I've read. Guns are not the issue. The biggest issue is all the violence on TV, Movies and especially these screwed up video games. Another issue we have is to many parents that allow there kids to do what ever they want. They are scared of their own kids!!! These young kids and young adults have no respect or family values as most of us had at that age. I'm not saying things were perfect growing up but if I did something wrong I got my A$$ beat. They should have never taken that away from parenting because now these kids know they can literally get away with MURDER

 

[Reli]

My opinion stands as a few others I've read. Guns are not the issue. The biggest issue is all the violence on TV, Movies and especially these screwed up video games. Another issue we have is to many parents that allow there kids to do what ever they want. They are scared of their own kids!!! These young kids and young adults have no respect or family values as most of us had at that age. I'm not saying things were perfect growing up but if I did something wrong I got my A$$ beat. They should have never taken that away from parenting because now these kids know they can literally get away with MURDER

Exactly, todays parents want to be "friends" with their kids. And they sue teachers for touching/disciplining their kids.

 

[stormsven]

Sorry to say that, but like all things in the world this is simple with 2 possible answers :
1. Wrong laws for weapons in the States
2. Really big % of "bad" people in the States
In the whole Europe for last 50 years we didnt got so many mass shootings like in the States for one year. Dont think that we dont have lot of hunters and people with permits for carrying guns though. Just the system is lot more tide for issuing a weapon permit. And here in Bulgaria we didnt have a single such event . And almost all of my neighbors and friends have guns. But one or two and even the bullets are under control.
I dont believe in the theory that thief will try to rob the house when people are inside. So the point of protecting yourself with firearms is just absurd.
When the black numbers are talking measures must be taken IMHO.
Thats my thoughts .

 

[THAFUZZ]

My opinion stands as a few others I've read. Guns are not the issue. The biggest issue is all the violence on TV, Movies and especially these screwed up video games. Another issue we have is to many parents that allow there kids to do what ever they want. They are scared of their own kids!!! These young kids and young adults have no respect or family values as most of us had at that age. I'm not saying things were perfect growing up but if I did something wrong I got my A$$ beat. They should have never taken that away from parenting because now these kids know they can literally get away with MURDER

Exactly!! Many of Us got our hineys whooped for "acting a fool" during our PeeWee years. I know I did. We turned out alright. But, I feared My Pop's belt. Fact is, too many of these top rated video games and Paintball obstacle courses are training kids to be better with assault tactics mirroring S.W.A.T. Google the top selling video games this Christmas. Assassins Creed, Black Ops, Medal of Honor, Sniper such & such, and whatever the heck else is out there. Today's 'Yoots' are far better trained as compared to when We grew up throwing dirt clogs, water balloons and sling shots ay each other.

 

[JVC Floyd]

why the hell do schools allow any stranger to walk in the front door?
they should have a procedure to keep out people that have no reason to be there after the student get in the building .
even retirement homes have better security.

to me part of the blame is on the school , they should have bullet proof glass on all windows and doors and automatic lock down with an actual person screening people through an intercom/video system before they let maniacs walk in the door . this kid should have never been able to get past the front door , why does the world protect money better than they protect their kids ?
all the money in the world can't mend a parents broken heart. in a crazy world we need to call a crow a crow and spend money on improving school security instead of wasting it on junk that is obsolete before you buy it.


cowards pick easy targets , back in the old west that motherfucker would have 6 holes in him before his sorry ass hit the ground.

 

[THAFUZZ]

Sorry to say that, but like all things in the world this is simple with 2 possible answers :
1. Wrong laws for weapons in the States
2. Really big % of "bad" people in the States
In the whole Europe for last 50 years we didnt got so many mass shootings like in the States for one year. Dont think that we dont have lot of hunters and people with permits for carrying guns though. Just the system is lot more tide for issuing a weapon permit. And here in Bulgaria we didnt have a single such event . And almost all of my neighbors and friends have guns. But one or two and even the bullets are under control.
I dont believe in the theory that thief will try to rob the house when people are inside. So the point of protecting yourself with firearms is just absurd.
When the black numbers are talking measures must be taken IMHO.
Thats my thoughts .

Tony, you make a great point about the big differences in violence between countries. Its so bizarre. Here is the U.S., people don't like being told what you can and cannot have- especially by Governments that won't let you have you rights back when you ask for them. So crazy, this reality. When someone tries to take away something you lawfully own You say "Hell No! "

 

[k2j]

why the hell do schools allow any stranger to walk in the front door?
they should have a procedure to keep out people that have no reason to be there after the student get in the building .
even retirement homes have better security.

to me part of the blame is on the school , they should have bullet proof glass on all windows and doors and automatic lock down with an actual person screening people through an intercom/video system before they let maniacs walk in the door . this kid should have never been able to get past the front door , why does the world protect money better than they protect their kids ?
all the money in the world can't mend a parents broken heart. in a crazy world we need to call a crow a crow and spend money on improving school security instead of wasting it on junk that is obsolete before you buy it.


cowards pick easy targets , back in the old west that motherfarker would have 6 holes in him before his sorry ass hit the ground.

Dude, schools are on tight tight budgets. They barely pay teachers enough, cancel music and athletics and cram tonsinto crowded classrooms. Invest that much more into schools is a great idea but good luck funding it

 

[Lasonic TRC-920]

I think the real answer has been proven from this short discussion, that there is no one solution than can make sense of this and if there is, we haven't found it yet....

I'm out!

 

[JVC Floyd]

My opinion stands as a few others I've read. Guns are not the issue. The biggest issue is all the violence on TV, Movies and especially these screwed up video games. Another issue we have is to many parents that allow there kids to do what ever they want. They are scared of their own kids!!! These young kids and young adults have no respect or family values as most of us had at that age. I'm not saying things were perfect growing up but if I did something wrong I got my A$$ beat. They should have never taken that away from parenting because now these kids know they can literally get away with MURDER

back then my dad had a .38 police revolver sitting in a cabinet in the living room, it was not loaded and we had no clue where the bullets were nor did we care and he taught us that it was dangerous and if we ever so much as looked at it the wrong way we would get our asses beat .but he showed us kids how to safely handle guns in case we lost our minds and wanted the ass whooping of the century.

back then parents took the initiative and beat you ****ing ass when you acted the fool.
needless to say we got our asses kicked quite often but never touched that damn gun
and we never ever considered using guns for anything except target shooting those kind of thoughts just did not exist back then.

 

[JVC Floyd]

why the hell do schools allow any stranger to walk in the front door?
they should have a procedure to keep out people that have no reason to be there after the student get in the building .
even retirement homes have better security.

to me part of the blame is on the school , they should have bullet proof glass on all windows and doors and automatic lock down with an actual person screening people through an intercom/video system before they let maniacs walk in the door . this kid should have never been able to get past the front door , why does the world protect money better than they protect their kids ?
all the money in the world can't mend a parents broken heart. in a crazy world we need to call a crow a crow and spend money on improving school security instead of wasting it on junk that is obsolete before you buy it.


cowards pick easy targets , back in the old west that motherfarker would have 6 holes in him before his sorry ass hit the ground.

Dude, schools are on tight tight budgets. They barely pay teachers enough, cancel music and athletics and cram tonsinto crowded classrooms. Invest that much more into schools is a great idea but good luck funding it

solution is take the donations from the gun control advocates and spend it on school security , they should make gun manufactures pay part of the cost of the problem , i do agree we don't need high capacity magazines and semi auto pistols ,only the police and millitary should have those i think they should only sell 6 shot revolvers that are hard to load like the colt peace maker ,and lever action rifles like the winchester .45 i would be more than happy with that. when these guns were the basic guns of the time you never heard of such things happening. having these fast shooting guns only lets complete idiots have a level of fire power that is beyond what the average person needs . i do love guns of the old west but only because that are works of art and not just killing machines any fool can pick up and feel like rambo. you actually need skills to use an antique gun without killing your self in the process

 

[Terry]

Why just rifles? Why stop there? Why not semi-auto pistols as well? They are just as accurate as rifles when inside the close confines of a classroom.

Because most of the mass killings have been with semi-auto rifles.

Here in Oz we removed 650,000 semi auto weapons in 1997, in the 18 years before there were 13 mass shootings, since then zero.

Well worth it.

http://tobacco.health.usyd.edu.au/asset ... revent.pdf

Are semi-auto pistols still legal in Oz?

If so, then your recent lack of mass shootings doesn't prove anything, because people could have easily used semi-auto pistols to commit mass shootings. But for some reason there were no mass shootings after 1997. So it's just a statistical anomoly IMO.

No, but knifes, machetes, hammers, nails and staplers still are, and there's been no mass murder with those weapons either.

Is that a statistical anomaly too?

 

[MasterBlaster84]

My opinion stands as a few others I've read. Guns are not the issue. The biggest issue is all the violence on TV, Movies and especially these screwed up video games. Another issue we have is to many parents that allow there kids to do what ever they want. They are scared of their own kids!!! These young kids and young adults have no respect or family values as most of us had at that age. I'm not saying things were perfect growing up but if I did something wrong I got my A$$ beat. They should have never taken that away from parenting because now these kids know they can literally get away with MURDER

Bill in a few short sentences you are right on and it's easy to see if you open your eyes and look beyond the inanimate tool (gun).
Fact is it's very easy to point the finger at the gun and far more difficult to look at the real issues. People want something they can see and touch to blame, it's far more diffucult to identify with the underlying issues which you can't see or touch. Right now emotions are understandably very strong so the gut reaction is to direct it at the tool this sick human used rather than the longer term need to better understand how and why this person commited this evil so we as a society can prevent these senseless acts of violence.

 

[Reli]

No, but knifes, machetes, hammers, nails and staplers still are, and there's been no mass murder with those weapons either.

Is that a statistical anomaly too?

Well, technically, Google says that semi-auto handguns are still legal if you're a sport shooter:

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/w ... 010935.htm

Earlier, Greens leader Bob Brown also said the shooting spree in Norway should force Australia to ban semi-automatic handguns.

However, Sporting Shooters Association of Australia spokesman Tim Bannister said there were 30,000-40,000 privately owned semi- automatic handguns, but murder by knife or blunt instrument remained nine times more prevalent than murder by firearm.

He said handgun ownership in Australia had always been tightly controlled and handguns remained the most difficult of firearms to own, noting that handgun ownership required club membership, a criminal history check and a probation period. In addition, the firearm could only be used at the club.

"Britain banned handgun ownership many years ago and handgun crime has actually soared. It just didn't work," he said.

 

[Terry]

Well, technically, Google says that semi-auto handguns are still legal if you're a sport shooter:

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/w ... 010935.htm

The laws are incredibly tight, rather than go through the drama of installing a properly certified gun safe most people with semi pistols leave there weapons secured at the gun club they belong to.

Gun death rate in the US is 9 per 100,000 and gun death in Oz is 1 per 100,000. Naturally not all are the result of violent crime.

 

[docs]

"Britain banned handgun ownership many years ago and handgun crime has actually soared. It just didn't work," he said.

This is pure nonsense and sensationalisation. There has and will always be a reason for the rise in crime which is totally none gun related just the same as tbere being reasons why crime is reduced. Blaming video games is rather hypocritical when you consider the fact that 99.9% of our UK population couldn't get their hands on a gun in the first place.
Guns make killing easy and thats a fact. Any intelligent and fully cognitive person can kill someone with a gun, any psychopathic deranged mental health loon can too. I agree there are bigger things at fault and they are problems way out of control that go way beyond video games. But to miss the point that its a million times harder to kill 20 odd people in a few minutes with an axe is just naive. There is no answer but realisation of the situation is paramount before it can ever be fixed.

 

[ea1987]

"Guns don't kill people, people kill people."

wtf?

Well isn't that the most simplistic crap you ever heard in your life?

Ever killed someone? Well I have, more than one, from a hill some distance away with a modern semi-automatic weapon in a middle eastern country the USA now regards as an enemy. (btw they aren't guns they are weapons).

It's incredibly easy to shoot and kill with a modern assault rifle, too easy, dozens of unarmed people can be killed in a few minutes, it's impossible to do the same with a knife, it's impossible to do the same with a handgun, it's even impossible to do the same with most shotguns.

Nobody is suggesting wholesale disarming of the US populace, that's impossible to do and not even necessary, just remove the long semi-autos, and like Chris says, trigger locks, gun safes, separate ammo safes. Also banning the private sale of weapons would go a long way to stopping crazy people getting hold of weapons.

But then only criminals will have weapons you say? Well I say it would make criminals a whole lot easier to identify and catch.



[ Image ]

TOTALLY agree with you!

 

[Fatdog]

Here's an interesting link from July, 2012:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog ... world-list

Notice that:

• 
  [*:3noh3enb]The US has the highest gun ownership rate in the world - an average of 88 per 100 people. That puts it first in the world for gun ownership - and even the number two country, Yemen, has significantly fewer - 54.8 per 100 people
  [*:3noh3enb]But the US does not have the worst firearm murder rate - that prize belongs to Honduras, El Salvador and Jamaica. In fact, the US is number 28, with a rate of 2.97 per 100,000 people
  [*:3noh3enb]Puerto Rico tops the world's table for firearms murders as a percentage of all homicides - 94.8%. It's followed by Sierra Leone in Africa and Saint Kitts and Nevis in the Caribbean

 

[THAFUZZ]

Here's an interesting link from July, 2012:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog ... world-list

Notice that:

• 
  [*:1bh4wbys]The US has the highest gun ownership rate in the world - an average of 88 per 100 people. That puts it first in the world for gun ownership - and even the number two country, Yemen, has significantly fewer - 54.8 per 100 people
  [*:1bh4wbys]But the US does not have the worst firearm murder rate - that prize belongs to Honduras, El Salvador and Jamaica. In fact, the US is number 28, with a rate of 2.97 per 100,000 people
  [*:1bh4wbys]Puerto Rico tops the world's table for firearms murders as a percentage of all homicides - 94.8%. It's followed by Sierra Leone in Africa and Saint Kitts and Nevis in the Caribbean

Interesting indeed.

 

[JVC Floyd]

there's another way and that is gun buy backs , the police buy back guns from the public and a lot of people are poor or want to get rid of the guns but some are afraid of prosecution usually there is an amnesty so basically they turn in the gun , without being arrested and they get paid a certain amount per gun , i have seen people lined up in the streets turning in guns and walking away with some money for food or whatever but it's amazing how many guns the police can buy in one day , even crack heads sell the guns to buy crack