Finally broke down and bought a set: TENERGY 10,000 mAh

[Transistorized]

This charger will show bad if the cells voltage reads 0.8V or less. Sometimes you can kick start the battery back to 1.0V or higher by paralleling it to a good charged battery for a few seconds (+ to + and - to -).

It sounds like these "bad" cells dropped below 1.0V and the others were carrying them while in the wheely. This can happen. Also these batteries are new and have not yet conditioned themselves so it is not uncommon for them to be greatly unbalanced until after a few cycles.

Checking the voltage is a must after each use when using these in a radio with no volt meter..if possible.

 

[Lasonic TRC-920]

This charger will show bad if the cells voltage reads 0.8V or less. Sometimes you can kick start the battery back to 1.0V or higher by paralleling it to a good charged battery for a few seconds (+ to + and - to -).

It sounds like these "bad" cells dropped below 1.0V and the others were carrying them while in the wheely. This can happen. Also these batteries are new and have not yet conditioned themselves so it is not uncommon for them to be greatly unbalanced until after a few cycles.

Checking the voltage is a must after each use when using these in a radio with no volt meter..if possible.

OK, I will check the voltage after each use, might even start a tracking chart to keep track of what I see.

UPDATE: They all charged back up 100%

Next round of questions....

Lets say I will not be using them in a radio for a few weeks....But when I do plan on using them, it will be for a FULL day out. They are charged right now.

Should I:

A) do nothing, wait a few weeks till it's time to use them and just put them in the radio?

B) Top them off again before I use them in a few weeks?

 

[Superduper]

A decade ago, lots of good expensive battery packs were wasted, destroyed or prematurely failed by poor battery management tech on laptops. These “smart” chargers weren’t always so smart and because they often misread a battery and had the ability to prevent a pack from charging, it was possible that a cell that could be restored by charging wasn’t because the software decided not to. In cases where a depleted cell could be “jump started” but a charger refuses to, this may be the time when you wished for a not so smart charger. Luckily I have a lab power supply available and can set to whatever voltage I wished. Connected to a battery holder, perhaps popping in one of these “bad” but not “that bad” cell for a few hours might get it to where the charger would accept it again for charging.

As for charging cycles, nobody actually knows when 1 charge is actually a charge. BUT I will tell you this: the battery pack in a Prius hybrid is comprised of 28 modules that each has 6 nimh cells. Yup, that is 168 nimh cells but guess what, they are assembled in series & parallel in a manner sufficient to drive a heavy car! But more importantly, most of these are still working perfectly after a decade of use. My 2006 Prius is still working fine on the original pack! How many charges per driving session? Let’s just say every time you step on the gas, the battery discharges and every time you step on the brake or coast downhill, it recharges. The charge/discharge cycle could number in the hundreds or thousands on every trip. Drive like this every day for 12 years, how many cycles you think that computes to? It seems the key to keeping these nimh batteries working almost forever is to keep their charge levels within a constant range (specific unknown) but probably like 60-90%. Kept like that, they last virtually forever with not thousands, but many orders of thousands of cycles. So if I suspect that if you don’t discharge too low and don’t overcharge, the number of cycles isn’t a concern.

 

[HRmeteohub]

Should I:

A) do nothing, wait a few weeks till it's time to use them and just put them in the radio?

B) Top them off again before I use them in a few weeks?

I believe you should keep the "bad" ones in one group, check the voltage the day before, and top off those that have gone south. My guess is that they will work OK.
However, if the charger is not smart enough (when topping them off without checking) it will not recognize them as almost-full, and charge them indefinitely. I always try to check if the NiMh batteries during charging to see if they are heating up - if they are too hot to touch (>45 °C), that will reduce their capacity.

Kudos to Superduper for driving Prius (for 12 years)! That is good battery management system!

 

[Northerner]

Rechargeable batteries are a right pain in the ass lol

 

[Transistorized]

Rechargeable batteries are a right pain in the ass lol

Haha. It's true that they need to be monitored to stay healthy. Once you get in the habit of learning your batteries and how long they last in your particular application and get a maintenance / charging routine down it's definitely worth it. They will save you many times over when properly maintained.

In Lasonics case, I would charge them up and check them after a couple hours of playing. If any cell is 1.2 or less I would charge. 1.23V per cell and up I'd let it ride another hour of use and monitor them again. Again, if any cell is below 1.2 even if the rest are good, if it were me they'd all get charged again in that case.

It takes some trial and error but eventually you will learn your batteries and boxes behavior. In my case I look at my volt meter on my C-100's and M90. When fully charged the needle (on the C100) will be in the middle of the yellow area, the M90 fully charged reads at the Red 1 but need charging when the needle hits or nears Red 0. If I ever glace over and see it has started to drop and/or has dropped to the left side of the yellow or red in the meters, I check voltages right away. Keep in mind this is usually after many hours and sometimes multiple uses on one charge. Last time the needle dropped on my C100 I checked and all cells were 1.23 (good) but one was right at 1.0V. Box showed no issues and played just fine. Had I continued to operate the box, that one cell would've been carried by the others until it was below safe levels, possibly shortening it's useful life.

So again....This is very easy to do. You cannot rely on changes of your boxes behavior other then noting it's battery indicator (if it has one).

Another example. You might be blasting your box and all is well with all cells happily charged. You listen to it this way for a few hours that one day. You do not check voltages (or maybe you do and most appear acceptable at 1.23V with one hanging in there at 1.21V) but then your next listening session is in the house or in an environment where maximum volume is not required. You turn it on for a few more hours and finally that one cell drops to 1.0V in the pack. Because the box is at a lower volume the sound isn't dropping out and LED's aren't blinking because the amp isn't needing the maximum amount of voltage it'd pull at a louder volume.....or maybe you pulled them out and put them in a box that will work fine with a lower voltage than the previous box without showing issues because its a smaller less of an energy hog device. Either way, everything sounds fine and happy for another few hours at the lower voltage consumption from a cell dropping out. You wouldn't notice the dying battery unless you cranked it in the high power usage device and noticed abnormal performance when the demand is high on the batteries or checked with a volt meter.

Hope this helps. General rule. Keep an eye on your boxes battery meter. If it doesn't have one check voltages after several hours of use. Better to be on the safe side

 

[Radio raheem]

Rechargeable batteries are a right pain in the ass lol

yes we can afford m90's and such so i don't object to buying Duracell if needed lol

 

[floyd]

One thing I will say about rechargeable batteries I have not seen one leak and f****** the battery compartment. No matter how long they stay in there.

 

[Lasonic TRC-920]

Great information guys. I have always found the subject of battery technology very interesting.

Superduper, I don't know if you remember us having a 2000 Honda Insight hybrid. We were early adopters. It was VIN# 0000----250 of the very first hybrids every made. We put 319,000 miles on that car. Great machine.

Northerner, your right, these things are a pain, but I just can't keep dumping $20-$30 on Duracell's. Back in the states I was getting them at Costco for $12 for 15!

HRmetorhub, I will mark the 4 that came up bad and see if they repeat. I will also be checking voltages prior to recharging. Also, the eBay seller where I got these batteries told me I have up to 90 days to return them!

Transistorized, your right, it's all about using them and learning pattern's like I did with my Energizer 2400's (which were AA batteries in a D cell case!). I had a great pattern going with those and I will do the same here.

I just need to make some workbench space and set up a permanent "Charging Station" with my charger, volt meter and batteries.

I think the hardest part of this whole thing that you have suggested is "learning your box".

DUDE! I GOT 75+ RADIOS!!!



I don't know, maybe 80 radios will help fix that problem

 

[Transistorized]

Yes. Having 75 boxes will present a major challenge on that one...haha

 

[Superduper]

Well, bad news. My Tenergy's arrived and right out of the box (without even charging), I placed them into my beloved LED flashlight and it lit up very bright for about 3 seconds.... then poof. No more. Those batteries aren't even charged! I just wanted to see if the flashlight would turn on. Put the alkalines back in and the same thing. The flashlight is apparently now blowed up. I put the rechargeables in the charger and they started charging, seems like low charge to me so shouldn't have been an over-voltage problem.

Apparently, these cells have much greater output current potential than the alkalines, even without a full charge. Sigh, this is my favorite flashlight and cost about $30 new. Couldn't even handle 1.2v cells compared to 1.5v alkalines. So if anyone has any doubts about how much power these NiMH cells have, take it from me -- they have more power than you know and don't worry about the voltage so much. Their low (compared to alkalines) internal resistance means that it could pass lots of current on demand compared to alkalines which will sag and throttle the current. I don't think it's the flashlight bulb that has failed. I think it's the driver circuitry -- couldn't handle the high current capacity of the cells.

 

[trippy1313]

Dang Norm... that's both good and bad news. Very cool but a little scary. Probably great for cranking our radios up though huh?

Sorry to hear about your flashlight... yikes.

 

[Superduper]

I just did some google research. Yup several people in the flashlight forums have confirmed exactly the same thing. NiMH batteries instantly blows this flashlight with the luxeon bulb. Designed for 6V alkaline batteries but can't handle 4.8v from NiMH because the drivers in these flashlights have no internal current limiting ability, instead depending entirely on the internal resistance of the alkaline batteries. No warning on light or package not to use rechargeables either. So I guess I'm not the only person who has blown one of these.

 

[jimmyjimmy19702010]

I just did some google research. Yup several people in the flashlight forums have confirmed exactly the same thing. NiMH batteries instantly blows this flashlight with the luxeon bulb. Designed for 6V alkaline batteries but can't handle 4.8v from NiMH because the drivers in these flashlights have no internal current limiting ability, instead depending entirely on the internal resistance of the alkaline batteries. No warning on light or package not to use rechargeables either. So I guess I'm not the only person who has blown one of these.

I’ve been a flashlight collector since 2008 on Candlepowerforums.com. All of my 1AA sized torches are run on Sanyo Eneloops with no issues. All of my high end AA lights have boost/buck converters that also allows the use of 14500 (AA sized) Lithium Ion cells for greater output.

One light I can recommend is the Jetbeam JET-1 MK. It’s a 1AA with 3 output levels and mode memory. Excellent torch with a glass lens, alloy reflector, fully regulated high output. They go for around $20-$25.
https://www.ebay.com.au/i/192055214197

 

[Superduper]

This flashlight is different. These new breed of luxeon flashlights uses very high current leds unlike previous lights using AA cells. Apparently, the internal resistance alone on alkaline batteries are enough to throttle the current sufficiently to prevent burnout. But the low internal resistance of nimh cells don’t throttle current like alkalines so in order to use them safely, resistors would be needed (or a driver which regulates current). Since the manufacturer (made in China, where else?) designed it only for alkaline cells, this flashlight can only be safely used with those types of cells. Your lower current flashlights probably have built in resistors.

 

[jimmyjimmy19702010]

The lower voltage single cell lights have boost circuitry to bring the voltage up to the voltage required for the LED to operate. As the voltage of the cell drops, the boost circuitry maintains ‘regulation’ of the voltage the LED sees.

Complicated boost/buck circuitry has been around for years. Torches that utilize no voltage maintaining circuitry tend to be low end examples that tend to need 3 cells (1.5v x 3) to enable the LED to operate but with no voltage regulation. So you’ll have an ever decreasing light output as the cells are depleted.

I’ve got huge 10,000+ lumen lights in my collection ($500-$900 each) (that utilize boost/buck technology. This also allows them to operate with 2, 4, 6 unprotected 18650 cells with the same light output. No super high output lights would ever be designed to operate on alkaline cells.

In a previous life, I was the sole Australian dealer for HDS systems and Malkoff Devices. (High end, made in USA flashlight gear used by US Military, law enforcement etc.) - Not available via EBay, Amazon, hardware shops etc).

 

[Superduper]

No way I would pay that much for a flashlight. This costed like $20-$30 & that’s enough. Takes 4-C cells, has a zoom lens and can project beam over 300’ with enough brightness for me to see my black dogs in the field at night. Plus it’s relatively light. Was the perfect lamp if it wasn’t that it eats batteries for lunch. Does it dim with use? Yep. Will I pay hundreds to avoid that? Nope.

 

[jimmyjimmy19702010]

No way I would pay that much for a flashlight. This costed like $20-$30 & that’s enough. Takes 4-C cells, has a zoom lens and can project beam over 300’ with enough brightness for me to see my black dogs in the field at night. Plus it’s relatively light. Was the perfect lamp if it wasn’t that it eats batteries for lunch. Does it dim with use? Yep. Will I pay hundreds to avoid that? Nope.

If you saw one, felt one and fired up one, you’d get it.

Extreme $$$s I know, they’re not for the average Joe.

Pro tip: Try one of those $25 Jetbeam lights I linked to - truly a pocket light bargain you’ll never want to go without (I pocket carry mine everyday).

It’ll run on alkaline, nimh or lithium ion cells - whatever AA sized cells you have laying around).

 

[Lasonic TRC-920]

Wait....

There are FLASH LIGHT FORUMS?

and why am I not shocked you belong to them

 

[Transistorized]

Sorry to hear about your flashlight Norm. Despite its failure I'm sure from a technical standpoint (despite being diappointed) you would agree with me in that it sounds like a poor decision and cost cutting at it's finest when they made that flashlight. Didnt want to invest in a simple limiting circuit.

Very poor decision IMO because it makes sense that someone would use rechargeables in a flashlight.

Assuming someone might not is kind of ignorant on the company that made it. For the same reason a manufacturer decides to not put diodes in circuit to prevent reverse polarity damage. Yes you can save money and not...but should you....yes.