Big Ben deck playback too fast

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Superduper

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hopey said:
The pulley on the motor affects the belt speed therefore tape speed. It's true if the Pitch pot is faulty the motor would run either fast or slow, but as disconnecting this part of the circuit has no effect I would conclude a work around is put a smaller pulley on the motor.




If the motor is faulty it would run slow not fast. Maybe someone has tinkered with this one before?
Please don't confuse the issue by throwing suggestions without a full understanding of what is happening. The pitch control we are talking about is not simply a board mounted micro-pot for tape speed calibration. In fact, tape speed calibration is performed on the big ben by rotating an entirely different pot, mounted within the motor and accessed via the traditional motor rear access hole. The control we are speaking of is a true pitch control FEATURE that allows the user to vary the speed of the tape deck EXTERNALLY. It has a front mounted knob like the JVC RC-M75. The fact that the knob has no effect already indicates that there is a problem within that circuit which is where we should be focusing initially. We all know that an improper sized pulley will alter the tape speed but it would be a STATIC change and won't affect the ability of the control to vary the pitch. In my experience, a wrong pulley is perhaps one of the least likely scenarios. Pulleys simply don't go bad, certainly not at the rate of bad motors, so why change it in the first place? The only reason I can see would be that the motor was swapped which is possible but then the technician would be able to find another matching 4-pin motor? And with a giant pulley to boot and not bother to swap it?

After all, let's analyze your 2 suggestions, shall we?

#1, you've concluded that if the pitch pot is faulty so the work around solution to fix it is to replace the pulley? And how many different combinations do you think it will take to eventually calibrate it so that it is just right? And do we just ignore that the pitch control feature is not working? I'm sorry, that solution is shade tree if ever I saw one. Dave has repaired far more complicated circuits than this. Why not first investigate repairing the current failure before entertaining disabling a feature and doing some kind of work-around? Also 4-wire replacement motors are available.... I think Caution might even have one available that might work.

#2, you state that if the motor is faulty, it would run too slow.... how do you know? Not every motor fault is identical. Internally, there is a motor speed control circuit that continually varies the power to the motor to account for varying loads. The heart of this speed control circuit is a small IC and it relies on feedback. If you grip the motor spindle and introduce friction, the torque will actually increase to account for it and maintain the speed. If this fails, it's not a mechanical failure but a failure nevertheless. However because it is internal to the motor, and not really intended to be serviced, failure of this circuit technically still means that the motor has failed and normally would be replaced as an assembly. Only because we are trying to repair obsolete machines do we now consider disassembling the motors to repair these boards. Normally, on 2-pin motors, it is designed to run at a single speed only. On 4-pin motors, the extra 2 pins is intended for external speed control circuitry INDEPENDANT of the normal adjustment used for calibration.
 

BoomboxLover48

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What Hopey is recommending is change the wheels to smaller wheels and adjust the constant speed/rpm, when the accelerator/throttle is stuck at a position.

We need to fix the accelerator/throttle control and set it on cruise control (the right playback speed). Keep the same tire size.
 

Superduper

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Royce, I'm not trying to make fun of Hopey's suggestion. However back in post #15, I already suggested that the wrong pulley theory does not at all address the speed control fault.

However, like you said in your example, if the suspected failure is a stuck accelerator linkage, why change the wheels or speedometer gear, or even entertain any other such thing when in my mind, the first thing to do is investigate the accelerator system.
 

docs

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I'll provide a little more details to this.
I have already completely stripped down the deck to fix the common fault with the pulley (not belt) spring breaking from the pulley (not belt) wheel which engages the takeup reel.
In doing so, all the goo form the belts was cleaned and new belts fitted. As well as cleaning any finger grease or other elements from the pulley (not belt) takeup tyre and the cog it engages, the deck works perfectly with strong FF/REW and takeup when in play mode.
All of this was necessary to get to the stage of recognising the present fault.

Additionally, the continuity from the 4 pin wire on the pot board connecting close to the R/P switch are all good. The only thing I haven't checked yet is the voltage collected at pin 1 of B-1 on the main PCB.
In the meantime, I've ordered a 5k logarithmic pot which should arrive in the next day or so.
I want to build the circuit recommended by Norm so I understand the process of elimination thoroughly before delving into the motor willy nilly. That's if I can even open it!
 

BoomboxLover48

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Some motors are so hard to open. I didn't attempt to open a 14V, 4 wire lead, Panasonic RX5350 motor because of the way it was sealed. That motor works fine for hours and then shuts off, there was voltage on the leads. Sometimes it shuts off in 5 min after slowing down. I thought it is old grease and wanted to lubricate it, but had no chance.
 

docs

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Yes that's what worries me about trying to get into it. Has anyone even been inside that particular motor before?
 

BoomboxLover48

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In my case it was the main trigger switch failure. I saw a piece of the micro switch in the box. Deck runs when you turn the flywheel, but won't play when you press the play button. After discussing about the symptoms with Norm, he isolated it to the main trigger switch. Bill was so generous enough to drive and get that switch for me! What a guy!

So I didn't have to do anything with the motor.
 

Superduper

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Dave you still haven't indicated or addressed the resistance question. According to the schematic, the control circuit runs through parallel resistors before the pot. By my calculations, that should put resistance range in 8k to 12k. Are you still getting 0-4K when measured at the motor or are you getting the proper readings now?
 

docs

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Superduper said:
Dave you still haven't indicated or addressed the resistance question. According to the schematic, the control circuit runs through parallel resistors before the pot. By my calculations, that should put resistance range in 8k to 12k. Are you still getting 0-4K when measured at the motor or are you getting the proper readings now?
Sorry Norm, I haven't tested this yet but will do so tonight.
 

BoomboxLover48

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8.0012 + 4 = 12.0012K

That is close enough! Where, 4K is varied on the pot with the wiper.

Our Pro Norm will chime in now with more clues. I feel always grateful for all the help Norm is doing here, everything in the minutest detail.
 

docs

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BoomboxLover48 said:
Our Pro Norm will chime in now with more clues. I feel always grateful for all the help Norm is doing here, everything in the minutest detail.
Couldn't agree more! Legend is an understatement.
 

docs

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I guess my next question should be, how do I open the top section of the motor with least risk of damaging the internals?

IMG_7759.JPG
 

docs

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Bill, if I desolder the board and remove the motor from the deck, is the outer case screwed on from the bottom where the belt fits the spindle? I can't remember what that end looks like.
 

BoomboxLover48

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The screws hold the motor is on the back plate side where we can see the pulley. Normally 3 screws hold it. The back plate removal is tricky here with springs levers and all. Once the motor is detached we can get a better idea on how to open it.

I never took a good look at that motor. The way it looks, is not easy to open it.


In some cases there are screws on the side of the motor to remove that round plate with the motor PC board.
Each motor is different.

I never opened a 4 wire motor. May be one of our members can chime in now.
 

BoomboxLover48

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docs said:
I'll have a closer look at it but I think it looks like a sealed unit.
That is the feel I got with the Panasonic RX5350 motor. Luckily our Vintage man came to my help. He gave me the part in the best condition. Now one of my RX 5350 is singing happy songs.

I never attempt, if I am not sure about not damaging it. I hate to destroy things. At close to age 60, I still got surgical fingers....can focus so well, but for certain things I stay away.

I work on sophisticated cars like BMW and Infiniti even though that is not my profession, just updating electronic parts, did a touch screen radio/wifi/apple mod even for my son's Infiniti. But I make sure I have enough information before I even attempt.

I would contact our bro Eric (caution) and see if he can help with the motor rebuild. Eric is AMAZING!!

~Royce


In the mean time we can search for that type of motor....

4 leads control torque like Big Norm said.
 
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