Sound quality differences among the same models

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caution

Member (SA)
I've heard it a lot here and am curious what might be the main reason behind this.

Clearly you can get poorer performance from dirty pots and switches, but beyond that, if the speakers don't show signs of breakdown, what else could it be? Has anyone ever found electrolytics or amp chips to break down just enough over time to chip away at sound quality that fresh parts fix the issue?
 

Reli

Boomus Fidelis
Yes caps can leak or dry up
And we've all had an amp chip go bad
And pizeo tweets that have stopped working
 

Superduper

Moderator
Staff member
All the amplifiers that I've recapped (especially home audio gear) have resulted in discernable audio changes to the output to some extent. We already know that electrolytic capacitors tend to go bad over time due to drifting capacitance or increases to ESR. When they fail either short or open, then this will typically result in a failure of that channel (or the device in general). However, say they no longer meet spec but haven't exactly failed? Well, then you are likely to see either changes in the performance, unreliable operation, mysterious gremlins, oscillation, motorboating, etc. Also resistors tend to drift in value as well, especially fusible varieties. Once again, whereas a resistor that drifts might not render the device inoperable, it could result in imbalance in audio, changes to the frequency curve, etc. Transistors also tend to get weak over time or might become slower than spec. Especially in the tuner section where frequency is extremely important, a transistor that tests OK using simple diode tests might not peform satisfactorily in the tuner. Remember that frequencies in the FM section will exceed 100 MHz. By contrast, a transistor in the audio section the is capable of performing at 20khz is perfectly fine since 20khz is probably at or near the limit of most peoples hearing ability. In any event, transistors/amplifiers that have slowed down can result in performance degradations, perhaps incuding decreased slew rate.

Anyhow, the rate of aging could vary based on the amount of use of the electronics, the number of on/off cycles (as the electronics will heat and cool with each thermal cycle). This phenomenon can be observed in computers that get used occassionally compared to say an office computer that stays on all the time, 24/7. While it may seem counterintuitive, a computer that gets used occassionally frequently fails before one that is on 100% of the time. That's because the always on computer generally remains at or near the same temperature during it's life. In fact, the computer that is currently being used to type in this post has been running for 10 years already with ZERO electronics failure. I am still waiting for it to fail so I can replace it with a more modern/faster one, but it never dies. Therefore, I have already cautioned in the past of arriving at and assigning conclusions to a particular model by a test/review of a single example. As all of these guys are 30+ years old, virtually none will spec exactly like a brand new off the shelf one and it's respective performance will vary based on too many factors to list.
 

caution

Member (SA)
Thanks. I'm aware of the piezos going bad but I wasn't sure about the amp chips, either from use or power/thermal cycling, in a way that only stole from the overall quality of the audio and didn't inject junk like popping or motorboating. From what you're saying about discrete transistors and audio-range frequencies, probably not.

I'm getting the sense that in terms of replacing components, audio path electrolytics are, in terms of cost/labor versus possible improvements, about as far as one can reasonably go to bring a unit up to its better-sounding counterpart, unless you have the schematic and a working knowledge of audio sections of tuners and audio amplifier circuits in general, that would allow you to identify components with the highest chance of impacting audio quality through what you mentioned - either ESR, drift (especially printed components) or in the case of tuner transistors, degradation.

Other than the occasional polystyrene I've seen none of the older types of caps (Mica, paper, etc.) and instead the more stable materials like mylar, ceramic, polypropylene and tantalum, which I have to believe minimizes meaningful drift.
 

neanderthal

Member (SA)
I bought a sharp WF-T380 for myself and another for my brother.
The one I bought for my brother turned out to be a lower spec model with less features and also less power.

Who knows what other cost cutting went on inside the unit.
 

ScareDe2

Member (SA)
Superduper said:
All the amplifiers that I've recapped (especially home audio gear) have resulted in discernable audio changes to the output to some extent. We already know that electrolytic capacitors tend to go bad over time due to drifting capacitance or increases to ESR. When they fail either short or open, then this will typically result in a failure of that channel (or the device in general). However, say they no longer meet spec but haven't exactly failed? Well, then you are likely to see either changes in the performance, unreliable operation, mysterious gremlins, oscillation, motorboating, etc. Also resistors tend to drift in value as well, especially fusible varieties. Once again, whereas a resistor that drifts might not render the device inoperable, it could result in imbalance in audio, changes to the frequency curve, etc. Transistors also tend to get weak over time or might become slower than spec. Especially in the tuner section where frequency is extremely important, a transistor that tests OK using simple diode tests might not peform satisfactorily in the tuner. Remember that frequencies in the FM section will exceed 100 MHz. By contrast, a transistor in the audio section the is capable of performing at 20khz is perfectly fine since 20khz is probably at or near the limit of most peoples hearing ability. In any event, transistors/amplifiers that have slowed down can result in performance degradations, perhaps incuding decreased slew rate.

Anyhow, the rate of aging could vary based on the amount of use of the electronics, the number of on/off cycles (as the electronics will heat and cool with each thermal cycle). This phenomenon can be observed in computers that get used occassionally compared to say an office computer that stays on all the time, 24/7. While it may seem counterintuitive, a computer that gets used occassionally frequently fails before one that is on 100% of the time. That's because the always on computer generally remains at or near the same temperature during it's life. In fact, the computer that is currently being used to type in this post has been running for 10 years already with ZERO electronics failure. I am still waiting for it to fail so I can replace it with a more modern/faster one, but it never dies. Therefore, I have already cautioned in the past of arriving at and assigning conclusions to a particular model by a test/review of a single example. As all of these guys are 30+ years old, virtually none will spec exactly like a brand new off the shelf one and it's respective performance will vary based on too many factors to list.
Very interesting post. So even for sound device that produce quite a good amount of heat like the JVC PC-55 would you recommend to keep the unit on most of the time?

what about tubes in guitar amplifers, do you think it's better to keep the unit standby (vacuum tubes still heating) when not being in use?
 

Nickeccles

Member (SA)
Don't you agree though Superduper that typically the good jap makes Sharp JVC Panasonic etc all have pretty reliable electronics & it's far more likely that any probs will be mechanical rather than electronic??
Move on a few years though & as an example: those awful Pioneer so called 'Midi Systems' had amp stages that would blow at the slightest sign of being pushed!!! Replacement of such STK devices was easy enough but it was how easily they would die that baffled me!! :bang:
 
I honestly have fewer electrical problems with the lower rank brands like Hitachi, Crown etc. I have had more Sanyos give me trouble with distorting/unbalanced amps, weak tuners etc than all other brands put together.

Which is a pity as early Sanyos sound great when running right.

Face it, these boxes are getting on. They'll all die eventually.
 

Superduper

Moderator
Staff member
caution said:
Thanks. I'm aware of the piezos going bad but I wasn't sure about the amp chips, either from use or power/thermal cycling, in a way that only stole from the overall quality of the audio and didn't inject junk like popping or motorboating. From what you're saying about discrete transistors and audio-range frequencies, probably not.
I'm getting the sense that in terms of replacing components, audio path electrolytics are, in terms of cost/labor versus possible improvements, about as far as one can reasonably go to bring a unit up to its better-sounding counterpart, unless you have the schematic and a working knowledge of audio sections of tuners and audio amplifier circuits in general, that would allow you to identify components with the highest chance of impacting audio quality through what you mentioned - either ESR, drift (especially printed components) or in the case of tuner transistors, degradation.
Other than the occasional polystyrene I've seen none of the older types of caps (Mica, paper, etc.) and instead the more stable materials like mylar, ceramic, polypropylene and tantalum, which I have to believe minimizes meaningful drift.
First regarding the caps, only electrolytics should be indiscriminately replaced. Ceramics do go bad but not with any amount of predictability. Tantalum are notoriously poor in terms of tolerance but they are usually only used in applications where tolerance is not critical, although there have been known cases where tantalums fail across the board in some models due to use of poor quality components to begin with but that is an idiosyncrasy of specific models and not a case in general.

As for monolithic amp modules, they frequently but don't always fail dead. In most cases, when they start going bad, they will begin to distort and heat up badly. But I would say that this isn't something I would recommend replacement in a refurb unless they are known bad. Genuine replacements are hard enough to find when there is a real need.

In general, your best bang for the buck is going to be non-selective recapping. Some would advocate only replacing those caps that tests bad, but what threshold are you going to use to determine "how bad" a cap is? Also, my general philosophy is that if you take the time to remove a cap from the circuit for testing, unless it is a large expensive one, why bother sticking the same cap back into it? Time is money and caps are cheap. Ok generally speaking that is, because audio grade electrolytics are many times more expensive than general standard grade caps but I would surmise that general grade is probably "good enough" for most boomboxes. If one cap goes bad, others are probably not far behind, after all, they are all the same age, all have been exposed to the same number of power on/off cycles, same environmental conditions (heat, corrosion, voltage surges, etc). As far as transistors go, I have in the past seen forums where people advocate general replacement of all signal transistors in the equipment they are restoring. I would not go there. Firstly, you are just asking for trouble if you replace the transistors in a tuner. I think the chances are equally good that a tuner will no longer work after replacement of the transistors compared to working better. In this case, identifying the bad transistor and finding a suitable replacement is challenging enough. The reason why is because of the ultra high prevalance of counterfeit stock in the marketplace. China has done a number on us all and flooded the market with literally tons of counterfeit products. Most do not spec properly and in an audio circuit, might somewhat function, but in a tuner where the transistor spec is ultra important, it's generally enough to render the tuner totally inoperative. If you don't believe me, look at the transistors in a tuner and see if you can find a replacement part. Oftentimes, you will find them on eBay only and they are all from Chinese sellers. They are 99% fake and won't work. Worse yet, they will introduce diagnostic nightmares to your job. The reason is they will test good with your tester, but not perform properly in circuit.

For example, let me share this story with you. A few months ago, I did the following repair. It is on a Harmon Kardon AVR receiver. It is not as old as most classic boomboxes, I would say about 25 years old. I purchased it new and used it for about 2 years, then passed it on to my brother in law. He used it for about 2 years before the display went out. Even though it still sounded fine, he couldn't see what he was doing so he took it out of service where it sat for 20 years. Recently, we rediscovered this and he offered it back to me for repair. First thing I did was repaired the bad flourescent display. Turns out it had a bad solder joint. Once that was repaired, I noticed that it distortion in the left channel, and there was a power on/off delayed growl. A quick test shows that the amp had unacceptably high DC balance in left channel. Right channel was about 15mv. Left channel was -200mv, way out of spec. My pre-conclusion was that there is a bias issue with that channel, and that aging/failed caps were to blame for the growl. Before ordering parts, I studied the circuit diagram and identified certain parts that might be bad. Among them was 2SC2290BL transistors in the preamp section. After I opened it up, I replaced all of the electrolytic caps and there was a lot, and a ton of boards. Like a dozen of them. I replaced all 5-channel's bias pots with multi-turn units. Voltage measurements indicated there was indeed problems, several failed or out of spec fusible resistors of unique values -- all obsolete. This required some fancy combination to come up with something that would work as the value was critical since they control bias voltage. Finally when I had the transistors out, I tested them and discovered that the original had beta value of 600hfe. The replacements I bought from eBay all were slightly smaller and all 40 tested beta at 200hfe. THIS IS COMPLETELY WRONG. I tested each and every one. Upon contacting the seller, he immediately refunded my payment and begged no negative feedback. Luckily, the transistor was still working properly so I reinstalled it and didn't need the off-spec replacement. However, if I had installed them without testing the beta, then I would be scratching my head since now, I will have a working but not properly spec'd transistor in the system which surely will not work right. How are you going to figure it out? Also, a poor transistor that is rated for 30v placed into a system with 60v could cause an avalanche cascading failure of the entire amplifier wiping out lots of very expensive and perhaps obsolete parts. Lesson learned here is that simple diode testing of the transistor will show it to be working, but it's not really is it? Hence the caution regarding counterfeit parts and the difficulty in procuring good originals.

BTW, after servicing, the receiver now works perfectly again, and should be good for another decade or more of use. Parts alone for the refurb costed more than you can buy this receiver for online. However, there is simply no way to buy one of these guys that isn't already having problems, or will soon have problems. After, all they are all the same age and the one having undergone the refurb is only lightly used -- that much I have personal knowledge of.


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Superduper

Moderator
Staff member
ScareDe2 said:
Very interesting post. So even for sound device that produce quite a good amount of heat like the JVC PC-55 would you recommend to keep the unit on most of the time?

what about tubes in guitar amplifers, do you think it's better to keep the unit standby (vacuum tubes still heating) when not being in use?
If you use your JVC frequently, then having it on all the time might be best to extend life of unit, but you will need to clean out the unit from time to time by blowing out the dust which inevitably will accumulate due to convection (heat rises and exits unit which draws in cooler air from below). This constant flow of air will draw dust into the unit. If you only use it sporadically, then just leave it unplugged. The benefit of not exposing it from power surges probably outweighs any benefit from keeping it on all the time without use.

As for tubes, since this is a boombox forum and none has tubes that I know of, this discussion is beyond the scope of boomboxery. However, I will say this: Tubes generally have a heated filament (like a light bulb) and so it's a different case when compared with electronics without tubes. While you might be able reduce or eliminate thermal cycles by leaving it on all the time, you will introduce other concerns since most filaments have a limited life of operation. You can read more about the arguments regarding leaving tube equipment on all the time. http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/154434/leaving-the-heater-of-a-vacuum-tube-on-all-the-time-vs-cycling-it
 

Superduper

Moderator
Staff member
Nickeccles said:
Don't you agree though Superduper that typically the good jap makes Sharp JVC Panasonic etc all have pretty reliable electronics & it's far more likely that any probs will be mechanical rather than electronic??
Move on a few years though & as an example: those awful Pioneer so called 'Midi Systems' had amp stages that would blow at the slightest sign of being pushed!!! Replacement of such STK devices was easy enough but it was how easily they would die that baffled me!! :bang:
Like Jimmy said, in my experience, Sanyo products are the worse for failed or failing tuners. Worse, the transistors used in these tuners are very hard to find. Panasonic caps are also not the greatest since I have seen several examples with failed or failing caps. JVC's however seem pretty reliable.

As for STK devices, keep in mind that STK amp modules produce a lot of power and require high (compared to boomboxes) voltages to do so. Almost all high voltage devices (such as home stereo receivers and amps) are far more sensitive to improper output impedance loads. If you do not observe the recommended loads (such as connecting 6, 4 or lower impedance speakers when manufacturer calls for 8-ohm speakers), you run a high risk of blowing the modules when you "push" them. Additionally, if you use cheap or improperly tinned speaker leads, you run a very high risk of blowing the amps. 28 years ago, I purchased a used Kenwood KR-9600 receiver from "The Sound Well" in Berkeley CA. They gave me a free set of speaker cables. I thought that was a nice gesture but they told me the reason why is because by far, the most prevalent reason for failed amps is due to folks using non-tinned speaker leads. A single strand that bridges or touches the other speaker lead will virtually instantly blow the amp. Boomboxes with low powered amps are more forgiving. High powered amps, not so much. The speaker leads they provide are tinned in the ends to prevent, or at least minimize, such shorting.
 

Superduper

Moderator
Staff member
toshik said:
Caps are #1 problem - you don't have to replace them all :-)
Yes, you said that before. I disagree though. When you refurb, you want it to last another 30 years. It's easy enough for you to keep replacing them as they fail since you are comfortable doing so. On boomboxes or portables, it's not as important. On home audio gear, a very high percentage of units already suffer from failed or degraded cap issue. Some gear, it's is very difficult to disassemble to gain access. Why play around with old caps that only costs pennies? Time is also money. Additionally, there is repair and refurb. If you are charged with a repair, then yes, go ahead and replace that one cap. But for my money, and if it is my own equipment, I would go ahead and just replace them all, especially if that is a piece of gear that I am attached to.
 

toshik

Member (SA)
I'm 100% with you on vintage tube audio I replace all electrolytics no exception. However it's not from 70s rather from 50s :-)
 

Superduper

Moderator
Staff member
Past experience is the best educator and generally is how folks will conduct their lives. Your experiences tells you which practices are best for you for the audio equipment you collect or work on. I've had far too many experiences, especially with the huge heavy receivers and amplifiers of the late 70's and early 80's that suffered capacitor failure or degradation that when certain symptoms manifest, I always recap first before proceeding. Otherwise, a lot of precious time can be spent tracking down the problem. If a single cap has failed, then it can be an easy fix since it' won't be hard to track down. However if it hasn't completely failed, and simply degraded. Worse, multiple capacitors degraded, then it's possible to spend a lot of time tracking down the problematic ones to correct performance issues. And if they are all on one channel, do you then replace the matching one on the other channel or just leave those? Because potentially, the sound characteristics could change and become mismatched. Frankly to me, it makes no sense to change 3 or 4 caps and leave all the rest of the 35 year old caps in place to potentially fail in another year, 2 or maybe 3. But then that's just how I roll. Your mileage may vary.

Again, I'm talking refurb vs. repair. Not all equipment is worth refurbing and simple repair is satisfactory, especially with regards to low voltage equipment. Caps seem to last longer on those.
 

MyOhMy

Member (SA)
After reading the posts by Superduper I feel very lowly and totally inadequate (which I am!). :dunce: :blush: However.....................



Great technical posts with such explanations that even I can understand. :yes: :thumbsup: :rock:
 

T-STER

Member (SA)
I feel like Superduper just dropped the mic and strolled off into the distance...........

Seriously though. i have just reread this whole thread and feel like i learnt a lot. Its priceless this place innit?
 

trippy1313

Member (SA)
T-STER said:
I feel like Superduper just dropped the mic and strolled off into the distance...........

Seriously though. i have just reread this whole thread and feel like i learnt a lot. Its priceless this place innit?
Haha, you know, I felt like we hadn't heard much from him in a while. I feel like Norm sometime has a pressure relief valve, and when that valve opens out comes an immense amount of knowledge. It's amazing the knowledge we can find in this site. I enjoy reading these threads.
 

ScareDe2

Member (SA)
I got a second DT680 for $15 it has a weird quiet hum and an inferior sound than the first I purchased. I tried with the other pair of speakers with same result, still a great sounding machine, but I can't crank it full volume it distorts and the woofer is not pounding with the same movements. I know it's the central unit maybe the amplifier. When I get those long screwdrivers I will finally be able to open it and carefully look at the circuitry. Maybe someone dropped it othrwise the cosmetic is great, cd player working but skipping at full volume (first DT680 plays CD without any problem) and the tape deck A is working tape deck B not working. Very decent condition only problem is the slightly inferior sound. I wish I can fix it. :-) :yes: :yes:
 
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