AC Plug question in relation to noise

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Transistorized

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OK. Im sure superduper and a few of you tech guys will know the answer to this but I ran into something unusual and wanted to ask why.

I was using one of my boxes and noticed that during the silent parts of the tape AC along with the cassette motor noise could be heard through the speakers. Touching the antenna stopped it. Going near the cassette head with my finger made it louder but touching the tape head made the noise go away.

So I know its a ground issue but why? Then I took the power plug and turned it around and plugged it back in. Noise gone. It's a non polarized plug so you can go either way.

My question is...why would it matter which pin is neutral and which is hot? Shouldn't the bridge rectifier and the filter caps in the PS take care of this?

Thanks
 

Transistorized

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Quasar GX-3612

As an additional bit of information (although unsure if it would matter). This box is different from my other boxes in that you actually have to flip a switch on the back to tell it if your on batteries or AC. Power plug is a permanent solder inside the box with a compartment to tuck the cord into when on batteries
 

Transistorized

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OK. I was doing some reading and I learned something new today. When you have an old radio (fixed cord) that does NOT have a polarized plug you can identify which lead the manufacturer has dedicated to neutral because that wire on the power cord will have a line or a rib going down the insulator jacket.

I looked at my radios power cord and sure enough when plugged into the outlet with the ribbed part of the wire supplying neutral to the radio it works better and is silent. While I am not sure why this adds to additional noise, the radio operates either way (as you would expect with AC voltage) but operates better when the polarity is correct. Im guessing it has something to do with chassis voltage as this doesn't appear to be an uncommon situation with older radios from what I've read.

Makes me wonder why they didn't use a polarized plug. Makes me wonder if all electronics operate better if plugged in correctly. Even my Conions. I have polarized plugs for them but you can flip the connection going into the power port either way reversing polarity. And while they may not complain about it like my Quasar did, it makes me wonder if our boxes have a preference in relation to better performance from proper polarization.
 

JVC Floyd

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It might matter in some cases because there are boomboxes with specially shaped power receptacles that allow you to only use a certain cord and it usually is keyed so that it has to be plugged into the box with the correct polarity.
 

Transistorized

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That's true Floyd. Maybe some of the higher end boxes use a diode or a switching circuit or a capacitor or resistor that bleeds off chassis voltage which eliminates and or reverses the effects of reverse polarity issues.
 

Superduper

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Well, if it was a model that was more common, and if I had a schematic diagram for it, I might be better able to comment. Without that, I'm only guessing.

With most AC products today, the cords are polarized except for those appliances which are "double-insulated." AC polarity is not to be confused with DC polarity because AC itself isn't really polarized like DC is. The reason AC polarity is important is because most appliance chassis are tied to the neutral lug. The other lug (hot) can kill you. For this reason, you never want to reverse the polarity on devices that require polarized cables. I have seen polarized cord ends shaved down so that they can fit into sockets that were not meant for them. Going back to the neutral lug, that (and everything else around us) is to some extent, connected to it. That means that if you touch a hot cable, the current would want to go through you, through the carpet, floor, etc until it gets back to ground (or neutral circuit). It is for this reason that the cords are polarized, otherwise if reversed, the chassis (or cabinet of your tool, refrigerator, etc) would be hot and touching it would be a huge problem.

On a home I just remodeled, there were many receptacles and a couple of light fixtures that had the hot and neutral cables reversed. I found out the hard way when I went to use my skillsaw connected to that receptacle. I almost got electrocuted simply by handling the metal case of the saw. Then there was the fan. When I went to change a light bulb, I carried a no contact current sensor to verify that the electricity was off before removing the bulb. Except when I stepped on the ladder and got closer to the fan, the sensor went off like crazy from all over. Evidently (and I confirmed this), every metal part of the fan was "hot." The most frustrating part was when I went to remove the receptacle to switch it back to the proper polarity, I found that the wire was actually the proper color, meaning that whoever "me-wanna-be-electrician" idiot did the work didn't even connect the wires properly. This is hard to do since black should always be connected to black and white should always be connected to white (unless routing to a switch which confuses some people). But I digress.

On the boomboxes most of us are interested in, the AC connection isn't really that important with regards to polarity and that is because internally, the transformer is acting like an isolation transformer. The current goes in one conductor, goes through the transformer winding, and returns through the other conductor to the receptacle. Since no part of the boombox including chassis, should be connected in any way to the transformer primary (the mains side), it should be "isolated" and therefore not an issue. Remember that AC has no real polarity and it doesn't really care one way or the other, will still work -- it isn't until it's rectified by the diodes that it becomes (+) and (-). The truth is that even if the transformer secondary was 100v and not 15v, if you were to accidentally touch ONE of the secondary conductors, you would not receive a shock unless you were somehow touching both secondary conductors. That's because the secondary is isolated from the primary so if you were to hold one conductor, (your hands, feet, etc are only technically connected to neutral of primary side and not the secondary side) there is no return path to the other secondary conductor. This is the same reason why birds can perch atop those high voltage cables without getting electrocuted. This is not the case if you were to touch a conductor on the primary side. One conductor is neutral and we are already connected to the neutral because every house has either a ground rod, or has the rebar grid within the house slab (although the wood, carpet, shoes, socks are all pretty high resistance). So touching the neutral does nothing since if there was any current there, it would simply pass through the conductor easier than it does our body. However if you touch the hot connection, the current will want to pass through YOU to find the path back to neutral (or ground) as resistance through you is less than air.

Ordinarily, the secondary of the transformer should not have any connection to the primary side. However, it is possible for the transformer windings to have some leakage if the insulation begins to break down, or even in some cases, by design, with special capacitors, leakage increases to unacceptable levels and you might observe the issues you speak of. Even electrical cord insulation, although a good insulator and conducts very little but very little is not none. So YOU are always at some level of ground potential and if your radio has some hot potential to it, then you might be able to "ground" your radio through you. The fact that this radio has a built in cord makes me wonder how it is connected internally, but the best solution for you is to simply replace the cord with a proper polarized cord. If your old cord is leaking some current, simply replacing it without regards to polarity might already fix, reduce or minimize your issue but if you replace it with a proper polarity cord, should eliminate it.

If you are really anal and wish to eliminate any chance of AC isolation issues, you can get something called an isolation transformer. Hospitals use them a lot. It's really just a transformer where the primary and secondary windings are matching. So 120v in = 120v out. The difference is that since the windings are isolated, you won't get a shock if you were to come in contact with any single conductor since there is no return path to the primary ground. Only if you were to touch both conductors would you be in danger of getting shock or electrocution.
 

Transistorized

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Thanks superduper. I actually caught onto what you were saying. Makes sense. I have labelled the plug and I think I may have a plug which is polarized that I can solder and replace the whole cord. I could cut the end off but then it would look modified and that would bother me.

I know what you mean about folks wiring things wrong. Every receptacle in my addition on my house was 100% backwards including the ceiling fan. They were cutting the neutral through the switch and supplying permanent hot. Idiots. I had to go back in and rewire the whole thing plus I got zapped which started the whole investigation to begin with.

So, in cases like this where an idiot wires receptacles wrong, even a polarized plug wouldn't help you. I guess you can't fix stupid. I have seen hot running through the white wire but only in situations where the power is coming to the circuit at the light. White (neutral goes straight to the light) and the black hot wire is twisted to the white wire of the cable going to the switch to send power to the switch and then is returned through the black wire to the light from the switch with the same cable.

IDK. Electrical always seemed easy to me but whoever wired my addition flunked out of General Construction Mechanics.
 

Superduper

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My suggestion to replace the AC cord was to replace the entire cord, not just the end for two reasons. First, to eliminate any chance that the cord itself is leaking some current and secondly, to ensure that it is polarized to the extent that the cord is plugged in like it was intended. Not sure if on this model, that the neutral is tethered to some part of the internal chassis or the frame of the transformer, etc.

As for home wiring mistakes, I suppose this is an extremely common problem, especially on older homes that have had some DIY exposure. Many folks wire something up and then flip the switch (or replace a receptacle) and the device or light works, so voila, it must've been done properly, easy right? Uh, wait, maybe not so fast. Like I said before, electricity doesn't care how it is hooked up, as long as there is a source and return path, it will perform it's work (even if that return path is through YOU). But the right way and wrong way, especially with regards to home hi-voltage wiring, is due to safety concerns. Modern appliances & power tools & fixtures have the case tethered to ground wire. This is done in case a hot wire accidentally contacts the chassis, it will ground and blow a fuse. Insulation can deteriorate and leak current too. However, when remodeling older homes, it is especially noteworthy to tread with caution because many older homes do not have grounded circuits.

As for wiring lights & white wire carrying current, you are correct, I have seen it happen too but it shouldn't. White wire should only carry current back to the panel or supply hot under a switched situation and even then, I mark the end with black tape to identify it as hot. There are 2 ways I employ to connect a light circuit.
  1. The first is to have the source go directly to the lamp. The white wire is then connected to the lamp and the black wire is spliced with the black wire in another romex cable which runs to the switch. It will then return to the lamp through the white wire but I always tape a small section of black electrical tape to the end that terminates at the lamp to identify that wire as the switched hot wire. This method only requires one 2 conductor romex to run to the switch. The white/black wire going to the switch is only if the circuit is wired using romex (95% of the time). Otherwise if rigid conduit is used, it is certainly ok to use black/black or black/red instead of white since with rigid conduit, you can pull and populate the conduit with whatever wire color you desire and not limited to white-black/+red in 2/3 conductor romex cables.
  2. The second manner is to have the source cable go to the switch first. The black is connected to the switch and the white is spliced to a new romex with white/white. The remaining black end of the cable at the switch is connected to the other switch terminal and the cable then run to the lamp with the white/black wires connected to the respective wires on the lamp.
  3. In situations where a single switch box houses multiple switches, I find it easiest for the source cable to start at the switch box. In this case, the black wire will power all switches in the box and only 1 cable will run to each lamp.

It is important to note that in both cases, the hot wire is the switched wire. That way, when you turn off the switch, the lamp (both conductors) will carry NO current. If you get it mixed up and the neutral is switched instead, the lamp will still work (remember, electricity doesn't care, as long as the circuit is complete) but this will become a dangerous situation because even with the switch in the OFF position, the lamp circuit is still always live. Worse yet is a mixup where the more easily accessible terminal (usually the large ring in a screw bulb circuit) will be the hot conductor instead of the recessed and less readily accessible one in the bottom of the screw well. Imagine if you were to change a light bulb, standing on a ladder & you get a surprise shock! Imagine worse if you were standing on an aluminum ladder, in the garage where the ladder is touching the grounded slab!!!!! In this case, it won't be just a tingle -- you could well be electrocuted, especially with a hand gripping the ladder.
 

Cpl-Chronic

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I should chime in here. Don't forget that a 120v AC plug consists of 1 HOT 120v leg & one grounded neutral return leg. So, YES it does make a difference as to which way the plug is plugged in. Yes, either way the plug is inserted into the outlet, the appliance receives 120v AC but if you reverse the intended polarity, if the power circuit design is not ideally isolated as super suggests, you can get strange behaviour like you've described because the grounded/return side of the chassis is now hot! That's why you get AC hum if plugged in the wrong way because the ground, usually (-) back to the power block, is now hot with AC potential. My electrical teacher in high school told our class that his biggest beef with appliance makers is their willingness to cut corners on design & put switches on the neutral side of a circuit instead of the hot supply side...
 

hopey

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I think you need to look at the secondary windings of the Power transformer. This is the point were the Earth Ground is made. The Primary winding AC has no reference to earth.
 

HRmeteohub

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What does "Universal voltage" mean - exactly. It is printed on the tape deck door of the Quasar GX-3612. Does that mean it has got 120/220V switch or it has got some circuit that senses the voltage and switches it for you?
 

hopey

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Probably just static electricity build up on a dry day. When you touch the aerial or disconnect the mains the static is being dissipated.

Can you confirm the problem still exists?
 

Transistorized

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HRmeteohub said:
What does "Universal voltage" mean - exactly. It is printed on the tape deck door of the Quasar GX-3612. Does that mean it has got 120/220V switch or it has got some circuit that senses the voltage and switches it for you?
It means that the transformer is wound in such a way that you can (manually) select the voltage for the Country you are in. It is also able to accept both 50 or 60hz cycles so you can power this box anywhere in the world.


hopey said:
Probably just static electricity build up on a dry day. When you touch the aerial or disconnect the mains the static is being dissipated.

Can you confirm the problem still exists?
The issue still exists plugged in when the power cord is reversed (neutral and hot) in relationship to the boxes internal circuitry and bridge rectifier. However on a side note, I've noticed that some receptacles are worse than others. Upon further investigation, I found that the circuits and receptacles powered on the L2 side of the breaker panel are louder when reversed than the L1 side. This may have something to do with the transformer on the power pole in relation to its center tap to ground.

Plugging it in correctly using the power cord groove and markings while having a correctly wired outlet seems to have fixed the issue I was having. None of my other boxes really care. You can faintly hear humming but no change on polarity.
 

JVC Floyd

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I'm a carpenter for a living I've been doing it for 25 years I've seen some of the most f*****-up s*** in house wiring even in expensive houses so it's no wonder some boomboxes might have electrical problems.
 

Transistorized

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JVC Floyd said:
I'm a carpenter for a living I've been doing it for 25 years I've seen some of the most f*****-up s*** in house wiring even in expensive houses so it's no wonder some boomboxes might have electrical problems.
:w00t: I take it you've been to my house. :lol: :lol:
 

JVC Floyd

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I swear my mom's house was wired and Plumed by the f****** Three Stooges. Word to the wise don't hire cheap drunk redneck cousins to do f****** Plumbing and Electric.
 
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