Big Ben deck playback too fast

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docs

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Hi all,
Just thought I'd post about a Big Ben deck problem which is fully working other than the motor and pitch control. The deck is playing fast so I checked out the pitch control and two resistors R779 and R880 but they check out fine.
Anything else I could check to cause the motor to go so quick during playback?
 

docs

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Hi, thanks for replies.
No the pitch control does not affect speed at all.

BoomboxLover48 said:
Seems like the pitch control pot is shorting. Now fully open and no resistance in the circuit. I would open the pot and check.
In circuit the pot has 4K resistance which is right.
 

BoomboxLover48

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docs said:
Hi, thanks for replies.
No the pitch control does not affect speed at all.

Seems like the pitch control pot is shorting. Now fully open and no resistance in the circuit. I would open the pot and check.
In circuit the pot has 4K resistance.
So the pot is somehow shorting.
 

docs

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Yeh I have access to the board but it's a stiff pot and I've cleaned it. The manual doesn't provide voltages to check which is usually a good place to start.
 

BoomboxLover48

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Like you know the motor got a speed adjustment at the back. I don't know how much that would help, if the speed is high. Manual shows that hole for speed adjustment, like in most motors. In some cases a 15 degree turn, and back to where it was, solved the variation. It happened on one of my Hitachi boxes. I just put the screw driver made a slight turn and brought it back to the original place solved the speed variation.

What readings are we getting on the motor leads?


~ Royce
 

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Superduper

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Dave, I am presuming that you already verified that the pot is working properly right? I'm not talking about static resistance, I am talking about confirming that pot rotation results in a proper response in the circuit. There is only 2 active wires that tethers that board. With it disconnected from circuit, and those 2 pins monitored with an ohmmeter, rotating the pot does vary resistance right? I cannot see if the 3rd pin (R) is active but if yes, monitor the other 2 instead since that switch position is tethered to the pot center when active and varying the pot will have no effect.

Ok so if yes, then your motors internal speed control is probably faulty.
 

docs

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Hi Norm, I tested the ohmage of the pot at the two pins on the pot board where the wire goes to the deck board. I disconnected the cable also..
I saw it change between Oohm and 4kohm when turning the pot.
Presuming the motor is shot? :(
 

Superduper

Member (SA)
hopey said:
Do you have the correct size pulley?
What does that have to do with this issue? Docs is saying that the pitch control is having no effect. An improper sized pulley might alter the speed but won't affect the ability to change the pitch.


docs said:
Hi Norm, I tested the ohmage of the pot at the two pins on the pot board where the wire goes to the deck board. I disconnected the cable also..
I saw it change between Oohm and 4kohm when turning the pot.
Presuming the motor is shot? :(
Dave, upon closer examination of the service manual, that 2-pin connector doesn't match up like you would think based on what you would presume from reading the schematic. There is S810 in between the wiper connection & the motor. s810 is the record/playback switch. Also, when you look at the PCB diagram of the board that houses the pot, that 2-pin connector is not connected directly to the wiper of the pot. Rather, the hot lead is redirected off that board to the 4-pin connector. I presume that it goes to the R/P switch then returns back to that board then to the pot wiper connection.

Additionally, based on the schematic, although one leg goes to the wiper, the other connection passes through 2 parallel resistors. If you were measuring at the leads that connects to the motor (not the + or - connections, the other 2), you should never read 0 ohms. Right?

Anyhow, yes, it's quite possible that the motor is now bad. It's seems common for 4-wire motors to go bad for some reason. They definitely seem to fail more often than traditional 2-wire motors. However you might be able to disassemble the motor and repair the little PCB that is inside there? However, before you write off that motor, I still think some more investigation needs to be done first. If it's easy enough to do, I suggest you desolder the 2 speed control wires from the motor and check resistance at those 2 wire ends. Are you again getting 0 - 4k when you rotate the pot with the 2P connection tethered? Based on the schematic, I can't seem to ignore the 2 resistors. Ribbon connections shorting is common enough. By my calculations, that parallel resistor network should equal 8001 ohms (or probably 8k intended).

Here is a test. Try disconnecting the 2 control wires. Temporarily solder those two control pads on the motor to an external pot and resistor setup to come up with a comparable resistance network. Maybe a 6.8k in series with 1.2k (to come up with 8k), and then to a 5k pot. See if that restores adjustable pitch. If yes, then the motor is OK and the problem is within either that board, or the wiring, or a short somewhere, or the R/P switch might be bad or have a shorted pin.
 

docs

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Thanks Norm, I'll check the pins across the R/P bar because that might be the easiest place to start in finding a dodgy pin on S810 and where the 4 pin leads goto from the Pitch Control pot board. I'll do some continuity testing to there too. If no success there I'll try and follow your recommendations to isolate the motor. Many thanks.
 

hopey

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Dec 28, 2014
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Superduper said:
Do you have the correct size pulley?
What does that have to do with this issue? Docs is saying that the pitch control is having no effect. An improper sized pulley might alter the speed but won't affect the ability to change the pitch.


docs said:
Hi Norm, I tested the ohmage of the pot at the two pins on the pot board where the wire goes to the deck board. I disconnected the cable also..
I saw it change between Oohm and 4kohm when turning the pot.
Presuming the motor is shot? :(
Dave, upon closer examination of the service manual, that 2-pin connector doesn't match up like you would think based on what you would presume from reading the schematic. There is S810 in between the wiper connection & the motor. s810 is the record/playback switch. Also, when you look at the PCB diagram of the board that houses the pot, that 2-pin connector is not connected directly to the wiper of the pot. Rather, the hot lead is redirected off that board to the 4-pin connector. I presume that it goes to the R/P switch then returns back to that board then to the pot wiper connection.

Additionally, based on the schematic, although one leg goes to the wiper, the other connection passes through 2 parallel resistors. If you were measuring at the leads that connects to the motor (not the + or - connections, the other 2), you should never read 0 ohms. Right?

Anyhow, yes, it's quite possible that the motor is now bad. It's seems common for 4-wire motors to go bad for some reason. They definitely seem to fail more often than traditional 2-wire motors. However you might be able to disassemble the motor and repair the little PCB that is inside there? However, before you write off that motor, I still think some more investigation needs to be done first. If it's easy enough to do, I suggest you desolder the 2 speed control wires from the motor and check resistance at those 2 wire ends. Are you again getting 0 - 4k when you rotate the pot with the 2P connection tethered? Based on the schematic, I can't seem to ignore the 2 resistors. Ribbon connections shorting is common enough. By my calculations, that parallel resistor network should equal 8001 ohms (or probably 8k intended).

Here is a test. Try disconnecting the 2 control wires. Temporarily solder those two control pads on the motor to an external pot and resistor setup to come up with a comparable resistance network. Maybe a 6.8k in series with 1.2k (to come up with 8k), and then to a 5k pot. See if that restores adjustable pitch. If yes, then the motor is OK and the problem is within either that board, or the wiring, or a short somewhere, or the R/P switch might be bad or have a shorted pin.
The pulley on the motor affects the belt speed therefore tape speed. It's true if the Pitch pot is faulty the motor would run either fast or slow, but as disconnecting this part of the circuit has no effect I would conclude a work around is put a smaller pulley on the motor.

If the motor is faulty it would run slow not fast. Maybe someone has tinkered with this one before?
 

baddboybill

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Jul 14, 2009
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hopey said:
Do you have the correct size pulley?
What does that have to do with this issue? Docs is saying that the pitch control is having no effect. An improper sized pulley might alter the speed but won't affect the ability to change the pitch.

docs said:
Hi Norm, I tested the ohmage of the pot at the two pins on the pot board where the wire goes to the deck board. I disconnected the cable also..
I saw it change between Oohm and 4kohm when turning the pot.
Presuming the motor is shot? :(
Dave, upon closer examination of the service manual, that 2-pin connector doesn't match up like you would think based on what you would presume from reading the schematic. There is S810 in between the wiper connection & the motor. s810 is the record/playback switch. Also, when you look at the PCB diagram of the board that houses the pot, that 2-pin connector is not connected directly to the wiper of the pot. Rather, the hot lead is redirected off that board to the 4-pin connector. I presume that it goes to the R/P switch then returns back to that board then to the pot wiper connection.

Additionally, based on the schematic, although one leg goes to the wiper, the other connection passes through 2 parallel resistors. If you were measuring at the leads that connects to the motor (not the + or - connections, the other 2), you should never read 0 ohms. Right?

Anyhow, yes, it's quite possible that the motor is now bad. It's seems common for 4-wire motors to go bad for some reason. They definitely seem to fail more often than traditional 2-wire motors. However you might be able to disassemble the motor and repair the little PCB that is inside there? However, before you write off that motor, I still think some more investigation needs to be done first. If it's easy enough to do, I suggest you desolder the 2 speed control wires from the motor and check resistance at those 2 wire ends. Are you again getting 0 - 4k when you rotate the pot with the 2P connection tethered? Based on the schematic, I can't seem to ignore the 2 resistors. Ribbon connections shorting is common enough. By my calculations, that parallel resistor network should equal 8001 ohms (or probably 8k intended).

Here is a test. Try disconnecting the 2 control wires. Temporarily solder those two control pads on the motor to an external pot and resistor setup to come up with a comparable resistance network. Maybe a 6.8k in series with 1.2k (to come up with 8k), and then to a 5k pot. See if that restores adjustable pitch. If yes, then the motor is OK and the problem is within either that board, or the wiring, or a short somewhere, or the R/P switch might be bad or have a shorted pin.
The pulley on the motor affects the belt speed therefore tape speed. It's true if the Pitch pot is faulty the motor would run either fast or slow, but as disconnecting this part of the circuit has no effect I would conclude a work around is put a smaller pulley on the motor.

If the motor is faulty it would run slow not fast. Maybe someone has tinkered with this one before?

I would say its rare that someone changed the pulley on motor. But I agree 100% with Norm that most likely its the motor internal board cuz this usually is what goes bad, and the testing they are doing will give the answer.
 
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