Just curious about the tweeters

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Cpl-Chronic

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Heyya all, =)

I was looking at some photos of an original M70 & noticed that the horns had a dustcap of a tweeter peeking through the hole in the coenters of the shallow tweeter horns. Behind the aperture, can anyone tell me what type of tweeter that JVC uses & how is it mounted to the horn, if that is the case. I've never seen 1 in person so was just curious. Love it or hate it. That's who I am. :-D :-D :-D
 

BoomboxLover48

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There is no boombox out there yet with real horn tweeters. :yes:

JVC comes with a flat horn, I wouln't call that 1 cm grill a horn.

It is just a tweeter with cone paper that we see in JVC M70. I have floor speakers with horn tweeters.

It can be any of the types shown tweeter types below coupled to a flared or horn structure. Basically the tweeter sits behind a horn structure.

Tweeters come in different types

Paper tweeters
Horn tweeters
Ribbon tweeters
Plasma or Ion tweeter
Dome tweeters
Piezo tweeter
Planar-magnetic tweeter
AMT tweeter
Electrostatic tweeters and so on..

Celestion were the first manufacturers to fabricate dome tweeters out of a metal, copper. Nowadays other metals such as aluminium, titanium, magnesium, and beryllium, as well as various alloys.
 

Cpl-Chronic

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BoomboxLover48 said:
There is no boombox out there yet with horn tweeters. :yes:

It is just a tweeter with cone paper that we see in JVC M70. I have floor speakers with horn tweeters.
They are a lot different from the horn tweeters.

Tweeters come in different types

Paper tweeters
Horn tweeters
Ribbon tweeters
Dome tweeters
Electrostatic tweeters and so on..

Celestion were the first manufacturers to fabricate dome tweeters out of a metal, copper. Nowadays other metals such as aluminium, titanium, magnesium, and beryllium, as well as various alloys.
Any tweeter that resides in a horn aperture, including the shallow horns or 'waveguides', if you will, of the M70 IS a horn tweeter by the very definition of an acoustic horn. They are not just for 'looks' or cosmetic value. They do boost acoustic output, similiar to a compression horn but not exactly alike to it. Comprende? Anyway, the GF-777Z has working horns too but no one seems to understand that even a shallow horn aperture does create a high pressure area within the neck of the horn & acts the same way any other horn does to varying degrees. The only differences are the amount of compression in the neck, the size of the horn & aperture, the efficeincy of acoustic coupling that results, the design of the driver itself, whether it is a cone, dome, diaphram, etc. & the physical angle, dimensions, etc. of the mouth of the horn. It is still a horn tweeter by definition & the very fact that the driver's output is shaped by the waveguide of the horn.

Simple, really & no other criteria are needed to define the M70's tweeters as horns. A compression driver by itself is not a horn untril it is loaded into a HORN waveguide.
 

Cpl-Chronic

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The same idea to a lesser degree is behind the cone speaker. A cone because it has horn-like dimensions will have a higher acoustic efficiency, than the same motor attached to a flat diaphram. Of course this is assuming all other parameters being equal, including surface area which of course would be impossible in reality.
 

BoomboxLover48

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Cpl-Chronic said:
The same idea to a lesser degree is behind the cone speaker. A cone because it has horn-like dimensions will have a higher acoustic efficiency, than the same motor attached to a flat diaphram. Of course this is assuming all other parameters being equal, including surface area which of course would be impossible in reality.
I can see just the dust cap residing at the mouth of the horn. We are not talking about a metal diaphram vibrating at the mouth of a horn. A dome would make some sense. :-D
Okay! But why all the high end speakers never have a horn aperture?
Sooner or later they found that there is no such efficiency when you talk about high frequency drivers.
Martin Logan electrostatic speakers that goes for several thousand of $ completely eliminated there types of drivers and horn arrangement. :yes: :yes:

B&Ws have a dome tweeter sitting on the top which does the magic with no horn in front. I love those speakers. Amazing performance! :yes:
 

Cpl-Chronic

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BoomboxLover48 said:
Cpl-Chronic said:
The same idea to a lesser degree is behind the cone speaker. A cone because it has horn-like dimensions will have a higher acoustic efficiency, than the same motor attached to a flat diaphram. Of course this is assuming all other parameters being equal, including surface area which of course would be impossible in reality.

Okay! But why all the high end speakers never have a horn aperture?
Sooner or later they found that there is no such efficiency when you talk about high frequency drivers.
Martin Logan electrostatic speakers that goes for over $10K to way above $20K completely eliminated there types of drivers and horn arrangement. :yes: :yes:

B&Ws have a dome tweeter sitting on the top which does the magic with no horn in front. I love those speakers. Amazing performance! :yes:
I disagree & this has been debated before by myself & other members. I have owned many Klipsh 'HIGH-END' speakers & almost all have very musical & clean sounding horns, so no not all high end speakers lack horns. Horns are ubiquetous in PA systems because they ARE more efficient, watt for watt, have better transient response, output much higher SPL's per watt & can deal with abuse that would shred a dome, ribbon or electrostatic tweeter to bits. Most home audio do not use horns because they want a wider dispersal pattern that aproaches 180 degrees versus the shaped coverage of a horn.
 

BoomboxLover48

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Cpl-Chronic said:
BoomboxLover48 said:
Cpl-Chronic said:
The same idea to a lesser degree is behind the cone speaker. A cone because it has horn-like dimensions will have a higher acoustic efficiency, than the same motor attached to a flat diaphram. Of course this is assuming all other parameters being equal, including surface area which of course would be impossible in reality.

Okay! But why all the high end speakers never have a horn aperture?
Sooner or later they found that there is no such efficiency when you talk about high frequency drivers.
Martin Logan electrostatic speakers that goes for over $10K to way above $20K completely eliminated there types of drivers and horn arrangement. :yes: :yes:

B&Ws have a dome tweeter sitting on the top which does the magic with no horn in front. I love those speakers. Amazing performance! :yes:
I disagree & this has been debated before by myself & other members. I have owned many Klipsh 'HIGH-END' speakers & almost all have very musical & clean sounding horns, so no not all high end speakers lack horns. Horns are ubiquetous in PA systems because they ARE more efficient, watt for watt, have better transient response, output much higher SPL's per watt & can deal with abuse that would shred a dome, ribbon or electrostatic tweeter to bits. Most home audio do not use horns because they want a wider dispersal pattern that aproaches 180 degrees versus the shaped coverage of a horn.

First of all I don't like Klipsh speakers. I never consider it among the high end speakers. Most audiphiles complain about them for paining the ears. I have a few friends that like them but I don't. My favorite speakers are
Focal
Thiel
Canton
B&W (My fav)
Martin Logan
Krell

There is a high end speaker on Ebay now

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Linn-Audio-home ... 2307ccecb6

The horn tweeters on high output concert speakers do justice and not the one on our JVCs. The so called horn we see on M70 tweeter dust cap is nothing but a glorified grill, this does absolutely nothing except damage from child fingers. :-D :-D They made a lip at the start to prevent poking. :lol:
 

Cpl-Chronic

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BoomboxLover48 said:
The so called horn we see on M70 tweeter dust cap is nothing but a glorified grill, this does absolutely nothing except damage from child fingers. :-D :-D They made a lip at the start to prevent poking. :lol:
Well, believe what you want bu it is a form of horn, or wave-guide & does boost output significantly versus the naked tweeter, by itself. Either way, there's no point in further debate. I just wanted to point out another instance to other members who have debated this before, where horns are used in ghetto-blasters to increase performance & SPL output. Sure enough, I get another debate on the subject as if I don't know what I am talking about when there is all kinds of papers on the benefits of horn design & waveguide theory that proves my point scientifically. It doesn't have to be a compression horn or have a deep neck to gain similiar benefits. Of course, the shallower the horn, the less benefits. The shape of the aperture on the M70- is another example of a horn type wave-guide, more specifically a shallow horn with acoustic advantages. as well.

Even a Victrola uses an acoustic horn to boost the sound from the record needle without any electric amplification, whatsoever. It doesn't share all of the same properties of a modern compression horn, yet it achieves similiar results of amplification without electrical power due to the high pressure area in the neck achieving better acoustic coupling with the motor or diaphram, cone, needle, etc. The air moving from the neck to the mouth of the horn increases in SPL as the waves move from the high pressure area ot the low pressure area & out from the mouth. This is all scientific fact & proven as such.

The M70 or GF-777Z uses the same laws governing horns to boost SPL output but in slightly defferent ways than the classic compression horn designs, that's all. :-D
 

Cpl-Chronic

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:lol:
BoomboxLover48 said:
My friend, let us check if this high end got a horn tweeter.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Linn-Audio-home ... 2307ccecb6

I see Ira with those speakers. :lol: :lol:
No they don't have horns & it doesn't prove my points about horns as invalid. As I said, very high-end HOME speakers go for a more omni-directional dispersal approaching 180 degreess where horns have a more directional & controlled dispersal pattern dictated by the design & angle of the horn aperture, itself. Look up Klipsch corner horns & learn. These are not just opinions but scientific LAWS that are supported by decades of research by acoustic engineers. This isn't an arbitrary cherry picking of web-sites to support my assertions but just the first couple of results from google out of literally 100's of supporting web documents.

Here ya go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klipsch_Audio_Technologies

OR here:
http://www.sonist.com/SONIST_WHITEPAPER.html & I quote:

"Special qualities of horns

What special qualities do horns have that endear them to enthusiasts besides having very high efficiencies? The horn may be viewed as an acoustic impedance transformer. When a diaphragm vibrates, pressure waves are created in front of it. This is the sound we hear. Coupling the motion of the diaphragm to the air is not an easy thing to do due to the very different densities of the vibrating diaphragm and air. This can be viewed as an impedance mismatch. We all know that sound travels better in high density materials than in low density materials, and in a speaker system, the diaphragm is the high density (high impedance) medium and air is the low density (low impedance) medium. The horn assists the solid-air impedance transformation by acting as an intermediate transition medium. In other words, it creates a higher acoustic impedance for the transducer to work into, thus allowing more power to be transferred to the air.

A horn is a tube whose cross-section increases exponentially. The narrow end is called the throat and the wide end is called the mouth. The transducer is placed at the throat. When the diaphragm moves near the throat, we have a high pressure with a small amplitude in a small area. As the pressure wave moves towards the mouth, the pressure decreases and the amplitude increases. Excellent natural efficient amplification.

As mentioned earlier, horns have very special properties, including lower distortion than conventional drivers, faster transient response than conventional drivers, and are easier to drive at high SPL's than conventional drivers.

Lower distortion at a given SPL: For an equivalent SPL, horns require a smaller diaphragm, and since distortion is directly proportional to the size of the diaphragm, a large diaphragm electromechanical transducer (conventional driver) has to move much more than a horned diaphragm in order to create the same SPL (sound pressure level). The larger the excursion, the worse the distortion. So, for a given SPL, a horn loaded system will generate much lower distortion than an electromechanical transducer.

Faster transient response: Since the diaphragm is smaller, it is lighter and thus it accelerates and decelerates faster. This, in the real world means superb, fast snappy transients. As the excursion of the diaphragm is very small as compared to an electromechanical transducer, the voice coil is much smaller and again, this translates to a lower moving mass and again, results in fast transients.

Higher SPL's with a given input wattage: Small voice coils also take full advantage of the flux in the pole piece gap. This increases the efficiency of the transducer allowing the amplifier to work with greater ease. Since the amplifier has more headroom and the driver handles peaks and high outputs more efficiently, horns are able to produce much higher SPL's before they distort.

Thus, in the normal operating range, horn designs are faster, more dynamic, have a better transient response, have less distortion, and are easier for an amplifier to drive than conventional driver designs.

Horns have impact!

You feel the music, you become part of the music, and the music becomes part of you. The full-range phase coherent wave front of horns produces a lifelike presentation with tremendous dynamic range, as opposed to "polite", compressed presentation of low efficiency conventional driver designs. Horns will never sound veiled or compressed.

Due to their inherent benefits of low distortion, high efficiency, fast and accurate transient response, and wide dynamic range, horn loudspeakers provide a pure, unadulterated musical presentation, a more organic and natural recreation of the acoustic event.

Waveguides are Specialized Horns

Technically speaking, all waveguides are horns, with a few specialized features which differentiate them from the generalized definition of a horn. Waveguides are used to shape the wavefront of tweeters, narrowing the spread of the wavefront and providing a constant SPL level and frequency response within the included angle of the waveguide. A waveguide can also be used on midrange and low frequency drivers, although at frequencies below 200Hz the wavefronts are omnidirectional. The benefits of the directivity of a waveguide are improved frequency response and SPL levels within the included angle of the waveguide within the operating frequency band of the waveguide. In addition, sidewall and floor bounce reflections are reduced by the controlled directivity. These benefits are achieved in the Sonist Concerto 2 standmount and Concerto 3 floorstander through the use of integral waveguides formed in the 2" thick solid poplar baffle for both the ribbon tweeter and 8" woofer. Here is a picture of the Sonist Concerto 2 standmount, showing the tweeter and woofer waveguides:"....

Now, if you look at the picture of the 2-way speaker in the article the waveguide of the tweeter is similiar in shape to the waveguides or shallow horns on the M70 cabinet. Hopefully, now, the light-bulb has lit over your head & you realize my point here about horn loaded tweeters in ghetto-blasters, which are few but they do exist like the M70 & GF-777Z, etc.
 

Cpl-Chronic

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BoomboxLover48 said:
I am still waiting to see and accept them as horns.

:-D :-D

[ Image ]
Well, all I can do is point you in the right direction with examples that are similair like the speaker system in the example website. Notice the similarities in the shape of the waveguede for the 2-way speaker & the M70. Both waveguides are made from the cabinets themselves & are not part of the tweeter assembly itself but an extension of the tweeters, just like a horn's body is an extension of the diaphram or cone of the tweeter. Also, read the paragraph that specifically states that waveguides, even shallow 1's are a form of specialized horn, just like the M70 has in each corner of its cabinet. What else can I say? As I stated before, countless articles on the web say the same thing I am trying to convey here, so check it out if you want, or don't. I've prove my point very handily while you point ot other speakers & their lack of horns as if the omission of horns is proof of something when really it only proves the designer of the speakers you mention are looking for a more uniform dispersal than a horn can give at the cost of less efficiency & noisier transients. That's all. :-)
 
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