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Conion C100 - no sound?


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#1 mmcodomino

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 11:30 AM

So as I am working on the two Conions to make one good one out of them, I have to realize that both have one and the same problem.
The power up just fine, alarm works, left VU meter goes to full when on radio.
But other than that - that's it :sadno:
No radio reception is indicated, the volume does not seem to affect the background sound of a humm/hiss.
The stereo/mono switch makes a small cracking come out of both speakers.

I cannot be the first one with this issue since both of the boxes have this problem :hmmm: .

PLEASE help!!! :thumbsup:

I was thinkign it could be a bad record bar, a haircrack on a board or something like that...I hope it is not the crack on a board - but isn't it very unlikely since both have the same issue??? :huh:

Any input welcome - otherwise I'll go through cleaning record bars and disassembling these things until I find anything visible that could be the cause :-/ .
I was thinking a loose contact on the main board maybe? I don't believe both tuners are broken. :no:
And I don't believe both amps are blown either :no: .
There must be something so please help me with your experience!

Thanks a lot!

Max

#2 baddboybill

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 11:33 AM

What about either of decks or the aux input?

#3 mmcodomino

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 11:35 AM

What about either of decks or the aux input?


None of the decks are working (belts) and I have not tried line in yet but there is no background noise as I switch to tape or line in mode...and the VU LEDs do not light up when turning it on :-/

#4 baddboybill

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 11:48 AM

Well Max I would try the more obvious stuff. Clean all switches, pots and power switch also check the headphones plug by plugging phones in ;-)

#5 blu_fuz

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 11:59 AM

check the headphones plug by plugging phones in ;-)



^^^^^ that worked on my M90. Supposedly dead left channel and BINGO! Sings like new. :thumbsup:

#6 mmcodomino

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 12:26 PM

It's not the head phone jack :no: .

No peak on the VUs on line in :no: .
Then all of a sudden, this very LOUD humming started and can only be stopped by gently tapping the back of the box :huh: .
Record bar maybe? Must be a loose contact somewhere....

Gonna take it apart and clean everything and then hopefully have it working again :lol: .

#7 Jboogie2384

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 04:22 PM

Check the LINE IN switch. It was preventing the needles on my M90 from moving properly. Spray a very liberal amount of DEOXIT in there while moving the switch back and forth. My M90 switch is still a little hard to move but my needles are moving now. Good luck!!

#8 baddboybill

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 04:46 PM

Max I just read a thread on s2g about a conion with similar problem and Norm chimed in stating that the HA1392 amp chips most likely are cause and new ones ( original not generic ) are needed. He stated he has had to replace a couple before :sadno:

#9 Jboogie2384

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 05:31 PM

Max I just read a thread on s2g about a conion with similar problem and Norm chimed in stating that the HA1392 amp chips most likely are cause and new ones ( original not generic ) are needed. He stated he has had to replace a couple before :sadno:

Blu Fuz has a set for sure. Look him up ASAP.

#10 mmcodomino

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 03:13 AM

Max I just read a thread on s2g about a conion with similar problem and Norm chimed in stating that the HA1392 amp chips most likely are cause and new ones ( original not generic ) are needed. He stated he has had to replace a couple before :sadno:


Sooo...i cannot just go order replacemenrs you mean?
Well...will Do further checking today.

#11 Superduper

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 04:56 AM

Blu Fuz has a set for sure. Look him up ASAP.


Not anymore, I don't think. Joe's amps have been transplanted into Sinister's C100 with blown amps.

Sooo...i cannot just go order replacemenrs you mean?


No Max. What I mean is that you should get "real" Hitachi chips and not counterfeit ones put out by the good folks in asia. They look exactly the same but are not. Anybody still selling tons of them are probably selling counterfeits. NTE replacements are decent quality and are new but might not hold up since Conion is not using the chips in the manner prescribed by Hitachi in their spec sheets. They bridged them in a non-conventional format that stresses them. Original HA1392's are obsolete and no longer being produced. So you'll need to get NOS Hitachi chips. And just because it says hitachi on them doesn't make them real. Copying the lettering is the easiest part of the counterfeiting process. Counterfeit semiconductors is a big problem, that's for sure.

#12 mmcodomino

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 05:11 AM

Actually i think i found some good Ones

http://item.mobilewe... ... 7644750498

Would those be ok ?

Can o get Originals from other boxes maybe ?

#13 blu_fuz

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 06:53 AM

Blu Fuz has a set for sure. Look him up ASAP.


Not anymore, I don't think. Joe's amps have been transplanted into Sinister's C100 with blown amps.



Yeah, I sent off everything on that board to Norm to help out Sin's Conion - I hope they work out for you and Sin :yes:

#14 Superduper

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 03:35 PM

@Joe: The board arrived damaged. The switches were mangled and the board itself snapped in one corner and the board in general has a large bow in it. So I had to desolder the amps to transplant them but they were working! :thumbsup:

@Max -- counterfeits wouldn't be very good if they didn't look the same. I can't tell you whether those chips will work or not. I can tell you I've installed counterfeits before and they literally sizzled and blew up within moments of powering up. Using chips harvested from old boomboxes worked fine though. You should google counterfeit semiconductors. You will be shocked what you read.

#15 blu_fuz

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 03:48 PM

@Joe: The board arrived damaged. The switches were mangled and the board itself snapped in one corner and the board in general has a large bow in it. So I had to desolder the amps to transplant them but they were working! :thumbsup:




Well, I guess the amps were what you were after anyway but that F'N BLOWS that the board/switches got so damaged...... :-/

Glad they were useful :thumbsup: :breakdance:

#16 mmcodomino

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 04:02 PM

@Joe: The board arrived damaged. The switches were mangled and the board itself snapped in one corner and the board in general has a large bow in it. So I had to desolder the amps to transplant them but they were working! :thumbsup:

@Max -- counterfeits wouldn't be very good if they didn't look the same. I can't tell you whether those chips will work or not. I can tell you I've installed counterfeits before and they literally sizzled and blew up within moments of powering up. Using chips harvested from old boomboxes worked fine though. You should google counterfeit semiconductors. You will be shocked what you read.


Would you think a good tech would know to use good originals and not those fakies? :-/

Damn, it is a little frustrating to have located the problem but not being able to fix it :lol: .
I take it as a challenge though :yes: .
I think I will go for a little more expensive BINs for those chips for single chip BIN - those seem most likely to be okay.
The 2,75€ ones are quite suspicious actually :lol: .

Thanks a lot for your help in advance! I am sure that is the issue - just need to fix it now. :yes:
Will take both chassis to a tech some time and tell him to replace the amp chips with the best stuff he has that fits. :lol:

#17 Superduper

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 04:21 PM

Would you think a good tech would know to use good originals and not those fakies? :-/

Given that the people that buy semiconductors are those in the repair or electronics industry, and considering how successful semiconductor counterfeiting scams are, you can guess that they are not easy to spot. Sometimes, the only way to know is to cut them open and compare the silicon wafers. Information on this issue can be found all over the internet. LIke I said, just google and read up if you wanna know more.

#18 mmcodomino

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 04:35 PM

Would you think a good tech would know to use good originals and not those fakies? :-/

Given that the people that buy semiconductors are those in the repair or electronics industry, and considering how successful semiconductor counterfeiting scams are, you can guess that they are not easy to spot. Sometimes, the only way to know is to cut them open and compare the silicon wafers. Information on this issue can be found all over the internet. LIke I said, just google and read up if you wanna know more.


Sooo...basically I can buy five of the same, cut one open and see if they are ok? :-D

I know..my stupid unexperienced mind thinks that as first thing.
I think I found old stock hitachi chips thouhg on eBay :hmmm: .
I think there have to be some good ones out there and heck, I will be doomed if I cannot locate them and let them be transplanted.

How often are those specific chips used in other boxes for example??? :huh:

#19 JVC Floyd

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 07:25 PM

it could be a problem in the alarm sensor , it basically overrides all functions when the alarm is on , also if the box was worked on before they might have plugged the connectors in the wrong places as the connectors inside fit onto several different plugs on the pc boards so labeling them when dis assembly takes place is important .

might not be either problem but it's something to look at .

#20 tshorba

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 07:55 PM

http://speedyspares.com/
http://spares.bigwar...=1&pcid=1115385
http://www.wescompon...eets/search.htm

Speedy spares is a very reputable company in Oz
Wes components supplies most of the trade

al show that they have stock

My tech is picking up Jeremy's VZ on monday, i will check if he has any in stock.

I would not trust buying them off ebay myself.

#21 mmcodomino

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 02:52 AM

http://speedyspares.com/
http://spares.bigwar...=1&pcid=1115385
http://www.wescompon...eets/search.htm

Speedy spares is a very reputable company in Oz
Wes components supplies most of the trade

al show that they have stock

My tech is picking up Jeremy's VZ on monday, i will check if he has any in stock.

I would not trust buying them off ebay myself.


Thanks so much! :thumbsup:

#22 mmcodomino

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 02:53 AM

it could be a problem in the alarm sensor , it basically overrides all functions when the alarm is on , also if the box was worked on before they might have plugged the connectors in the wrong places as the connectors inside fit onto several different plugs on the pc boards so labeling them when dis assembly takes place is important .

might not be either problem but it's something to look at .


Thanks for your thoughts :smooch:
The alarm actually works perfectly on both boxes :lol:
I really go the amp way since both boxes show exactly the same symptoms and this seems to be well known for them :yes:

#23 Superduper

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 03:36 AM

@Max:

Just to clarify, I have not diagnosed your box. My contribution previously was only to follow up on Bill's post about my post in the other forum, regarding a different C100 and my comments regarding the C100 amps being failure prone and my suggestion that if replacing, to find OEM chips. That's it.

Before you replace your amps, you really should be investigating whether or not the amps are at issue. Keep in mind that your amps are separate for left and right channel. So unless both amps failed at the same time (less likelihood), then whatever the issue is must be common to both channels. There are only so many things that can be common to both channels and a single weak solder joint or a single bad capacitor is unlikely to be the culprit since unless it involves the power rail or something similar, such failures usually involve only 1 channel if it's in the audio stream. This involves checking to make sure your amps have power, making sure your tuner has power and you can do that by checking the appropriate places with voltmeter.

You should also check your line-in and line-outs because (1) your Cassette is not working and (2) you did not check your line-in. That's already 2/3 of the source generators leaving only the tuner. Well, if your tuner is dead, and you don't confirm whether either of those other two sources are "live", then the dead amp conclusion is faulty. Also, you need to verify whether line-outs are working because that will at least tell us whether the line-amps are working. If yes, then we can move on to test the preamps.

Your power amps -- remember to check pin 2 or pin 5 of each amp with a signal tracer. A signal received at either of those two pins suggests that the amp is not amplifying the signal. However, if either of those pins, and I think pin 2 is the primary one, does not receive a signal, then the faulty amp diagnoses would be premature since the amp can not reproduce or amplify an empty signal.

Finally, you say the alarm works perfectly. Well that sucks. I mean not really, but the alarm really is an oscillator that sends a signal to the amp, and if the amp is blasting out a loud sound from both speakers -- that suggests to me that the amps may indeed be working OK since it's apparent that it has no trouble reproducing and amplifying an audio signal. :-O

#24 mmcodomino

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 04:08 AM

@Max:

Just to clarify, I have not diagnosed your box. My contribution previously was only to follow up on Bill's post about my post in the other forum, regarding a different C100 and my comments regarding the C100 amps being failure prone and my suggestion that if replacing, to find OEM chips. That's it.

Before you replace your amps, you really should be investigating whether or not the amps are at issue. Keep in mind that your amps are separate for left and right channel. So unless both amps failed at the same time (less likelihood), then whatever the issue is must be common to both channels. There are only so many things that can be common to both channels and a single weak solder joint or a single bad capacitor is unlikely to be the culprit since unless it involves the power rail or something similar, such failures usually involve only 1 channel if it's in the audio stream. This involves checking to make sure your amps have power, making sure your tuner has power and you can do that by checking the appropriate places with voltmeter.

You should also check your line-in and line-outs because (1) your Cassette is not working and (2) you did not check your line-in. That's already 2/3 of the source generators leaving only the tuner. Well, if your tuner is dead, and you don't confirm whether either of those other two sources are "live", then the dead amp conclusion is faulty. Also, you need to verify whether line-outs are working because that will at least tell us whether the line-amps are working. If yes, then we can move on to test the preamps.

Your power amps -- remember to check pin 2 or pin 5 of each amp with a signal tracer. A signal received at either of those two pins suggests that the amp is not amplifying the signal. However, if either of those pins, and I think pin 2 is the primary one, does not receive a signal, then the faulty amp diagnoses would be premature since the amp can not reproduce or amplify an empty signal.

Finally, you say the alarm works perfectly. Well that sucks. I mean not really, but the alarm really is an oscillator that sends a signal to the amp, and if the amp is blasting out a loud sound from both speakers -- that suggests to me that the amps may indeed be working OK since it's apparent that it has no trouble reproducing and amplifying an audio signal. :-O


Wow, good read, thanks. :yes:

So however, I tested line-in and line in is dead too meaning it does not show movement on the VU meters.
There is no background noise to be amplified by turning the volume/bass/treble knobs up. :no:
One of the two Conions occasionally goes into a 50hz humming mode which is really loud.
You know as far as the alarm goes - I tried it by just pressing the alarm button and heard a very silent alarm in the background - did not mean to scare the heck out of the house owners so the actualy LOUD alarm never made a sound.
The tuner does not show any reception as stated before.
Oh - and the LEDs do not light up when I power the unit up... :hmmm:
Actually there is no signal to be seen on the LEDs at all. :sadno:

Any ideas left for me?
I still somehow believe in the amp chip theory for some reason - I guess I have faith in it and a semi-experienced friend told me that the 50hz humm could in fact be a short in the amp chips.
The stereo/mono switch does in fact do some static noise to both channels btw...dunno if this is an indicator for anything. :huh:

Nothing on headphones either...I did not test line in with line out together since I just did not think of it.

Damn...any ideas on that one Norm? I pretty much described everything I know :-/ .

#25 Superduper

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 04:17 AM

Well, if you are just hearing a faint noise when alarm is triggered, then it certainly could be the amps. I was merely saying that if the alarm was working perfectly like you said, then the bad amp theory would be suspect. That's like saying nothing electrical in the house works except for the TV. Maybe the power pole got severed? See what I mean, it doesn't make sense.

The thing about the alarm is that it introduces a very high audio signal to the amps, much higher signal than would normally ever be introduced from the audio preamps. So I wonder if you turn the volume control full tilt, would you maybe hear a faint signal through the radio or line-in?

Anyhow, I do recall on one of the Conions I worked on -- that the alarm did emit sound faintly -- nothing like it is supposed to. New amps fixed it. See the thing is that there are two amps run in bridged mode. If one of the two in bridged config is still working, you might could hear an attenuated version of the original signal.

#26 mmcodomino

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 05:26 AM

Well, if you are just hearing a faint noise when alarm is triggered, then it certainly could be the amps. I was merely saying that if the alarm was working perfectly like you said, then the bad amp theory would be suspect. That's like saying nothing electrical in the house works except for the TV. Maybe the power pole got severed? See what I mean, it doesn't make sense.

The thing about the alarm is that it introduces a very high audio signal to the amps, much higher signal than would normally ever be introduced from the audio preamps. So I wonder if you turn the volume control full tilt, would you maybe hear a faint signal through the radio or line-in?

Anyhow, I do recall on one of the Conions I worked on -- that the alarm did emit sound faintly -- nothing like it is supposed to. New amps fixed it. See the thing is that there are two amps run in bridged mode. If one of the two in bridged config is still working, you might could hear an attenuated version of the original signal.


Sorry about my wrong Statements about the alarm.
Here is the thing - one alarm sounds more like a hissing than a horn. The other one is very weak.
I hear nothing from any Input source even at full volume.
I will check the second amp pin as soon as i get my hands on a voltmeter...never did restoration on such a grail box before. Damn, i wish it was just new belts and deoxit :-(

Thanks for your help Norm! I really appreciate it.

#27 mmcodomino

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 10:36 AM

This is a call to Norm our master of electronics again :-D

I just got to test the amps on Conion #2 and (sadly) they in fact work both...right and left channel :sadno: .
Conion #1 cannot be tested right now since the chassis is out but i am more optimistic with that one since the alarm only came out as weak hissing sound :hmmm: .

Soooo...I found two blown resistors in Conion #2 - one is on the Tape 1 board (the weird double one standing up in a triangle shape) and the other one is on the Amp board.
I strongly doubt that one single blown resistor could actually cause both channels to not produce any sound :hmmm: . What's you word on that, Norm? :huh:
I have the feeling that the main board (volume, bass, balance, treble, etc) does not get power somehow...the only reaction i get from it is that the power needle goes up on the VU when switched to radio.
no radio reception, no moving VUs on any source.
damn, this keeps on confusing me...and today's normal techs do not have a clue about these old units :sadno: .

#28 mmcodomino

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 12:41 PM

Okay, i spent 5 hours swapping the amp boards of both boxes - I am afraid of nothing on a friggin C100F anymore now :annoyed: :lol: .
It was pretty darn scary but after reassembling one with the defnitely proven good amp board, the same issues still occured :sadno: : .
Alarm blasts just perfectly as expected (so apparently I reconnected everything the right way after writing every plug down) but there is no reaction to any other inputs. :sad:

Any idea would be greatly appreciated!!! :angelic: PLEASE!!!
Have you ever experienced something similar? I mean BOTH Conions have the damn same issue :sadno: .
Could maybe the pre-amp be bad? Semms unlikely to me though.... :-/
A defective function switch? Glue, you had something like that I remember! It was leaking voltage? Could it be a dead switch there?
I am really at the end of my knowledge...expected this to be much easier considering I knew the normal Conion issues. :-/

The only good thing are the cosmetics which are still coming along well. :yes:

Does anyone have some Conion guts left? :lol:
It MUST be the baord with the volume, balance, bass, treble and function knobs...there basically is no other alternative i guess :-/
A bad rec/play switch is unlikely either since I fiddled with it while it was (not) working. :-/

#29 Superduper

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 08:22 PM

Sorry, Max. Without personally looking at it, I can't comment on it any more. Remember there is no service documentation for me to refer to.

Also, I am 100% totally confused as to what exactly is your problems. You say one amp works and the other you aren't sure. But you say they behave the same. Then you say there is two blown resistors but you don't have a volt meter? How do you know they are blown and are you sure they are resistors? Also, the pins I asked you to check -- how did you check it? I asked you to check with a signal tracer. That is not a voltmeter. It is a high gain audio amplifier that amplies a small audio signal level that is line/preamp line level so you can hear/see when an audio signal is present. They aren't common anymore in repair shops. That's more of an old school diagnostic tool.

I think you'd really need to find someone else to help you with this. Unfortunately, issues with the Conion really aren't diyer type of repair except for maybe belts and deoxit issues.

#30 mmcodomino

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 05:02 AM

Sorry, Max. Without personally looking at it, I can't comment on it any more. Remember there is no service documentation for me to refer to.

Also, I am 100% totally confused as to what exactly is your problems. You say one amp works and the other you aren't sure. But you say they behave the same. Then you say there is two blown resistors but you don't have a volt meter? How do you know they are blown and are you sure they are resistors? Also, the pins I asked you to check -- how did you check it? I asked you to check with a signal tracer. That is not a voltmeter. It is a high gain audio amplifier that amplies a small audio signal level that is line/preamp line level so you can hear/see when an audio signal is present. They aren't common anymore in repair shops. That's more of an old school diagnostic tool.

I think you'd really need to find someone else to help you with this. Unfortunately, issues with the Conion really aren't diyer type of repair except for maybe belts and deoxit issues.


I checked the amps the oldschool-touch-the-second-pin-and-best-a-humm-way :-)
Damn...the only (weak) idea i have left is to unplug the alarm Sensor if it somehow sucks up the Power... Lol
Will have a tech friend take a look at them though.
Damn...changing amp boards was a hard task...the only positive thing is that i did Not screw everything up :lol: