tuner tuning ??

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redbenjoe

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can anyone here convert an analogue FM90 tuner into an FM108 tuner ?
example is skippys marantz PMS8000 --

same question for digital tuners ?
example is the aiwa 88 // 880

or --must the entire 108 tuning section
be taken from another parts box
(which is $$ hard to find --in those two examples)

thanks
 

Eric

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May 7, 2009
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Well possible, but not realistic. Many parts would have to be changed in order to tune the higher frequencies. There is a good amount of play in most analog tuners and you might be able to get a few more megahertz by realigning the tuner but nothing substantial. Digital would require the same except new ic chips would also be needed for the new frequency tuning capability.
I did see this out there
http://www.alibaba.com/product-free/10860970/Car_Radio_Converter_FM.html

its for a car stereo :hmmm:
 

redbenjoe

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wowee --
what a nifty gadget --

one of us :-) should invest in in one -- just for the experiment :yes:

as its for autos -- we might assume its a digital product ?
 

Superduper

Member (SA)
Ira, the answer is that YES, it can be converted to receive the broader range of World FM as opposed to Japan FM. Before I comment on how to do it, which Eric has already mentioned, I'll first comment on the circuitry conversion.

Japan tuners and World tuners vary not only in the frequencies received but also the received range. Japan tuners only have a 14mhz bandwidth. World tuners have a 20mhz bandwith. Problems with converting a tuner from 76-90 to 88-108 is several fold:

(1) the tuning dial will always be incorrect. You would be tuning blind
(2) Even with the service manual, virtually all boomboxes (at least the ones we collect) are PARTS OBSOLETE. The swap can be done but some parts will have to be changed, then the entire FM will have to be realigned. If you are replacing a transistor, capacitor or resistor, you can usually cross the original with another. However, the RF tuning coils and transformers usually are listed in the service manual and have a manufacturers part number, not the product value, i.e. uH, without which we wouldn't know which appropriate part to substitute.
(3) The cost to do the conversion and alignment from a tuner guru specialist will not likely be less than the cost to procure a donor box from which you can also extract the tuning dial scale as well.
(4) A service manual is almost a requirement because each manufacturer specifies unique locations to adjust the tuners, and specify the frequency of the signals to inject, etc. Without this...... well, do you just guess? Service manuals for many models, especially those from asia, and generics, well they don't exist.

So the solution is to use what are known as FM Band expanders. These are small inline devices that install between the external antennas and the tuner's antenna-in junction. Since the problem is most notable in vehicles, the devices that are out there have been manufactured specifically with antenna splices with automotive jack/plugs. It makes for easy retrofit. They do, however, require 12v power to function. When off, the normal FM signal reaches the radio. When activated, the device shifts the received signal an amount corresponding to the device's calibrated spec (they are sold with frequency shifts of 10, 12, 14, 16 18 and 20mhz). In other words, the japan tuner shows a received frequency of 80mhz. If you have a 12mhz band expander device, you would add 12mhz to the indicated frequency to arrive at the actual frequency received which would be 92mhz. AM signals are passed normally and are unaffected. Unfortuantely, these devices is not completely without issues. Most notably, since the bandwidth on japanese radios is only 14mhz as opposed to world radio coverage of 20mhz so the covered range is either going to have some overlap or some non-covered frequencies. The problem with non-covered frequencies is obvious. The problem with overlap is that the tuner could fight between 2 frequencies (for example, with a 14mhz shift, a tuner can receive 90 and 104mhz at the same time. 2 Channels fighting for one spot on the dial does not lend to good results.

So. How to install? The devices generally come in 2 different styles; Box and Bullet shaped ones. I have read pros/cons for either so I won't comment except to say that it needs to fit inside the boombox so size and shape should be main consideration for the particular boombox. The antenna cables can be modified to be spliced into the system with no external evidence of the retrofit. I would install a power switch someplace so that the band expander only powers up when needed and not unnecessarily draw power when not needed. I probably won't rely on the boomboxes power switch because that would mean the expander would be powered up even if the tuner is not being used and the extra current draw might cause the switch to wear out faster. If a boombox has enough room inside, a pair of expanders could be implemented and an external switch installed to permit "switching and selecting" the amount of frequency shift to maximize coverage.

Advantage of this system is that the tuner can be left entirely stock including the tuning dial. Only you know that 76mhz is actually 94mhz with an 18mhz shift. It also works whether the tuner is a digital or analog as it makes no circuitry changes. It merely shifts the received frequency to one the tuner is able to handle and works transparently.

I have a few RX-7700's which I am planning to do this retrofit on. Great box to do it on since it's desirable enough to expend the time, effort and money, has lots of room, and plenty of places to install additional switches without looking out of place. Lastly, if I recall correctly, Australian companies are the pioneers for these types of devices. I've been told they're the best and they can sell you custom shifts. I've also seen cheaper chinese ones but those are generally sold with only 1 or 2 varieties of frequency shifts. They all say their's is the best so take that with a grain of salt.

I imagine this is a topic that would be of great interest to many collectors since there are so many Japanese Grails with otherwise "useless" FM out there that is making their way into the US collections. Is there a way to "sticky" this?

IRA, you owe me for my sore fingers. Typing this thing was a pain!

~Norm.
 

Fatdog

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May 3, 2009
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Man, I wish were as educated on such things as Norm. :yes:

Thanks for the write-up! :cool:
 

redbenjoe

I Am Legend
May 6, 2009
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norm -
-that was so great of you to make that mega-kind :-)
contibution -- :yes: :yes:

for my own collection - i have passed on EVERY FM90 box --
so - that huge problemo has been avoided -- :-)

but skippy has that marantz 8000 to sell
and ramon (monchito) has an aiwa 88 --

so - it would now seem that both of them could use a 108 parts box-
as, i guess you are saying -- thats their best solution-

since both those biggies are $$serious grails :-D
then - it might be worth it--
-----------------------------------------------------

or -- did you happen to read my 'foolproof'
remote tuner rig scheme ??
its in the skippy 8000 sales thread --
seems stupid to use a walkman as the tuner-- :dunce: :huh:
but SOME of the best older sony/aiwa walkman seem to have
very competent tuners.

thanks again
 

monchito

Member (SA)
May 5, 2009
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very good info and yes ira owes you big time :yes: :yes: and yes what i have seen comparing an 880 to the jap j88 most of the radio board are simular but there were only a few things that was missing on the jap board about 2 transistors and resistor that was routed defferently i still have to check the main dial lcd board but did find one extra cable on the 880 were the j88 did not have,, to go though all of that i would replace the tuner section from a donor instead of trying to make the original work and then trying to align it basicly everything else is the same main board cassette so with that said maybe that converter would be good or a portable satellite reciever :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes:
 

71spud

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May 7, 2009
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If I want to listen to the radio I guess I would just have to choose one of the other 150++ boxes to listen to... ;-)
 

Superduper

Member (SA)
monchito said:
very good info and yes ira owes you big time :yes: :yes: and yes what i have seen comparing an 880 to the jap j88 most of the radio board are simular but there were only a few things that was missing on the jap board about 2 transistors and resistor that was routed defferently i still have to check the main dial lcd board but did find one extra cable on the 880 were the j88 did not have,, to go though all of that i would replace the tuner section from a donor instead of trying to make the original work and then trying to align it basicly everything else is the same main board cassette so with that said maybe that converter would be good or a portable satellite reciever :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes:
The difference is going to be more than just a couple of transistors and resistors. The RF coils / transformers are likely going to be different. They look the same, I'm sure but the values are likely different and some trim capacitors might be different too.
 

Superduper

Member (SA)
redbenjoe said:
norm -
-that was so great of you to make that mega-kind :-)
contibution -- :yes: :yes:

for my own collection - i have passed on EVERY FM90 box --
so - that huge problemo has been avoided -- :-)

but skippy has that marantz 8000 to sell
and ramon (monchito) has an aiwa 88 --

so - it would now seem that both of them could use a 108 parts box-
as, i guess you are saying -- thats their best solution-

since both those biggies are $$serious grails :-D
then - it might be worth it--
-----------------------------------------------------

or -- did you happen to read my 'foolproof'
remote tuner rig scheme ??
its in the skippy 8000 sales thread --
seems stupid to use a walkman as the tuner-- :dunce: :huh:
but SOME of the best older sony/aiwa walkman seem to have
very competent tuners.

thanks again

Ira, the walkman tuners is not likely going to have the same level of audio quality as the onboard tuner. I doubt the separation, sensitivity and selectivity will be as good too. Also, the gain of the internal tuner AF out is setup specifically to work good with the amp. Using an external audio source from line-in could introduce additional distortion although I imagine with the mega distorion most boombox already have, this is less of an issue than if this was home audio gear. The FM band expander setup should be the best thing. Looks stock on the outside -- uses the same tuner dial, mechanism, as the original, etc. The only difference is that you'll just have to remember that to make a mental adjustment to the frequency read from the tuner dial.
 

Superduper

Member (SA)
SUCCESS said:
I've never heard about this converter !!!!!
Thanks for posting Superduper.
No need for me to describe this more than necessary because if you google "FM Band Expander" you'll get all the info you need. Sooo simple to install... just splice between the aerials and the junctions on the PC board.

So.... now all you guys have absolutely NO excuse not to drive up the prices on those 76-90 Grails too! Shhhh. This was my best kept secret -- now it's out of the bag!
 

Eric

Member (SA)
May 7, 2009
105
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Kalamazoo
Well I ended up getting one of these "band epanders" from Domino Electronics. It was $20 with shipping. Pretty neat device. I put it inside my Aiwa 88 which is the Japan version which tunes from 72 to 90Mhz. It works sweet although I do have an issue with Stereo on some channels :hmmm: Could just be my digital tuner though is not as forgiving as an analog. If I flip it to Mono it works perfect. Superduper do you have a suggestion with this?

Here is how how I installed it.
Here is what the device looks like. I should have taken a pic before cutting the the antenna lead, but you get the idea


next I took the end that would normally go into your radio and used that for the input into the device. This way I will have bare wires on each end.



On the antenna end I connected the center lead to one antenna and the ground to the other. Now with the Aiwa 88 it "seemed" that one antenna was part of the ground circuit so I attached the ground portion of the band expander to that antenna. This also provides an electrical connection for grounding.





On the output side, I connected the lead that was going to the one attenna and connected it to the center conductor on the output of the expander. Power for the unit I found a regulated output line for voltage 12volts. I am sure these things can use a wide range of supply voltage....probably 10 to 15 volts would be fine.



Finished install


The tuning is actually very good. I now can get most medium to strong stations just as a normal radio would get in the US with a Japan tuner. Although the tuning scale of course does not read the actuall channel your on. If Stereo signal was perfect I would recomend it 100%
 

Fatdog

Well-Known Member
Staff member
May 3, 2009
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:agree:

Very cool, Eric... and it looks like it is really simple to do. :yes:
 
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